The hagiography of a terrible President

Happy 100th Birthday for Sunday, former US President Ronald Reagan.

Let’s make sure your legacy – of poverty, death, global conflict and fundamentalism – is never forgotten.

No matter how hard certain people would like to pretend you were something other than you were.

Seriously, I heard an Australian commentator on Q&A last night eulogising you as some kind of imaginary, inspiring historical figure and nobody called him on it. What is wrong with these revisionists? Why can’t they remember the real you?

It’s very disrespectful.

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67 responses to “The hagiography of a terrible President

  1. Well the current US president seems to revere him so Regan’s elevation to national treasure seems to now be a matter of bipartisan consensus.

    And if that’s not a measure of just how far to the right the ‘centre’ in America has moved in the last 25 years then nothing is.

  2. Good one jeremy.

  3. Splatterbottom

    There are some things in his favour:

    He had a major role in the fall of communism, the greatest tyranny ever inflicted on the human race.

    He left the country economically better off than he found it.

    And he was perceptive enough to observe that ““government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

    On the other hand he has his detractors. Hitchens was all spittle, but seemed to later soften his approach.

  4. I grew up in the time of Reagan and his affable dimwit Canadian counterpart, Brian Mulroney.

    I’m still treating the scars with a poultice.

    Cheers.

  5. “And if that’s not a measure of just how far to the right the ‘centre’ in America has moved in the last 25 years then nothing is.”

    It’s truly sad.

    “He had a major role in the fall of communism, the greatest tyranny ever inflicted on the human race.”

    No, he didn’t. But his nuclear brinkmanship did almost result in our oblivion as a species.

    “He left the country economically better off than he found it.”

    He left it many, many times more in debt.

    “And he was perceptive enough to observe that ““government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.””

    Which is, of course, utter garbage. Democratic government is simply the people. The problem is undemocratic government.

  6. Ronny Raygun what a joke. Still in his favour he did get his wife’s sage advice.
    She got it from reading horoscopes. He ended communism! What a laugh, he drove more people back to the left than Mao could have ever dreamt of.. Yes he run up the deficit alright, star wars comes to mind.

    As for Gerard Henderson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Who could ever forget the dumb f&*^not realising his microphone was on at a media P.C. , when he said? “We have outlawed Russia we begin bombing in five minutes.”Or words to that affect.
    And my wife wants to know why I drink.

  7. The Wikipedia page has that as an example of his “wit”. He was joking!

  8. “The Wikipedia page has that as an example of his “wit”. He was joking!”

    I would never have guessed, sigh! It still wasn’t meant to be broadcast around the world. The man was dangerous, and I celebrated his departure from this mortal coil. Some good reading is around about his involvement in the ” Anti American activities investigations” It would have been o/k if he could act. Win one more for the Gipper yuk! BTW that’s out of my head, not Wikipedia.

  9. “He had a major role in the fall of communism,”

    Don’t know what news broadcasts you were watching in the 1980’s, but on my TV, the people behind the iron curtain basically said “Get lost” to the corrupt dictators, the army didn’t crush them (because the army was in many cases also victims of the corruption), and the leaders were basically toast. A movement not unlike what we are currently witnessing in Tunisia, Egypt, etc. Now, as then, the most the West did was give moral support so that the protesters didn’t feel alone.

    “the greatest tyranny ever inflicted on the human race.”

    Communism pales in comparison to the 1000+ years of tyranny due to feudal collaboration between the Catholic Church and the European monarchies pre-Enlightenment. Modern tyrants may be more efficient at killing due to better weapons, but none of them have lasted more than a few decades. Not centuries of constant oppression.

  10. “Communism pales in comparison to the 1000+ years of tyranny due to feudal collaboration between the Catholic Church and the European monarchies pre-Enlightenment.”

    Jesus don’t put to much logical information here, some of our right wing revisionist commentators may have to cancel their subscription to Readers Digest and the Beano, and buy some real books.Oh BTW, Fox wasn’t around in the eighties. But you obviously knew that?

  11. Gerard Henderson was the “Australian commentator” who lauded the ‘B’ grade actor. Nothing unexpected there!

  12. C’mon guys, it’s all negative, think of the positives, we would have never had that awesome spitting Image character if it weren’t for Ronnie.

    And a tip for SB, Conservapedia is wrong. 😉

    “He and his administration did almost nothing during the first seven years of the epidemic. AIDS research was chronically underfunded. Community education and prevention programs were routinely denied federal funding. ”

    My take on Reagan. He was a prick!

  13. Splatterbottom

    Reagan has enough negatives. But there will always be fanatics incapable of taking a balanced view. If you have long ago sold out all semblance of objectivity and sacrificed all desire to get at the truth then of course you will have nothing good to say about this evil blackhearted man, like:

    “No, he didn’t. But his nuclear brinkmanship did almost result in our oblivion as a species.”

    Reagan had a major role in convincing the communists that they could not compete militarily. That coupled with a total loss of faith in their system, even by the leadership, triggered the downfall. Empires fall when they lose faith in their gods.

    The true scum in all of this were the idiot stooges in the west who supported communism to the end. Some of them have found power and position in the Greens.

    Lynot, the interesting thing about Readers Digest was they were far more correct about communism than the leftist orthodoxy of the day. Their readers were much better informed about this issue than those who read idiot arse-lickers like Howard Zinn or Eric Hobsbawm. Of course these mindless stooges are still respected by the modern left.

  14. Reagan had a major role in convincing the communists that they could not compete militarily. That coupled with a total loss of faith in their system, even by the leadership, triggered the downfall.

    I’d always understood the argument to be that Reagan effectively bankrupted the USSR because they wouldn’t accept that they couldn’t compete militarily. That their participation in the arms race was not a failure on a military level, but on an economic one.

    Either way it’s dubious that these consequences were an intentional policy of Reagan’s rather than simply an unintended outcome of his myopic subservience to the corporate-military complex that got him elected.

    I suppose it doesn’t matter though in the end: results is results.

  15. Why does no one ever acknowledge Gorbachev’s role? Viva El Gorbo!!!

  16. … the idiot stooges in the west who supported communism to the end. Some of them have found power and position in the Greens.

    Names, please.

  17. Splatterbottom

    RM: “Names, please.”

    Lee Rhiannon.

    Voluntarily joining the SPA is beneath contempt. Her half-arsed non-apology is exactly what you would expect from someone still cavorting in the sewer of history that is the radical left.

    Unsurprisingly she was caught up in scandal about her use of the perks of office.

    Also Adam Bandt certainly knew what he was doing back in his Trotskyite days. He spelled out his plan for the Greens as follows:

    “Supporting the Greens would perhaps be the most effective strategy at the next election. The Greens are in many ways bourgeois, but they have been able to exert influence over the Government’s agenda. They are all we have at the moment [and] building a ‘new’ party simply to get votes can be absurd”

    Watermelons indeed!

  18. Their readers were much better informed about this issue than those who read idiot arse-lickers like Howard Zinn or Eric Hobsbawm. Of course these mindless stooges are still respected by the modern left.

    Actually SB, Zinn was part of the Socialist organisations that viewed the Stalinist USSR, China, Cuba, Vietnam etc as just as bad as capitalism. “neither Washington or Moscow” was the slogan during the cold war.
    Although you obviously don’t believe in the theory of State Capitalism that Zinn followed, it’s factually incorrect and quite dishonest to associate Zinn with support for the USSR.

    I might also add that Zinn was dismissed from Spelmen College in June 1963, after siding with students in the struggle against segregation,
    and that he joined the army in WW2 because of his desire to fight facsim.
    As just two examples of what he did with his life.
    So, he lost his job to fight racism and risked his life to fight fascism.

    What about you SB? What the fuck have you done apart from sit there behind your anonymous window waving your finger at people?

    How amusing that in the same breath you make statements like:
    But there will always be fanatics incapable of taking a balanced view. If you have long ago sold out all semblance of objectivity and sacrificed all desire to get at the truth then of course you will have nothing good to say

    Maybe you should drink a decent sized cup of your own medicine eh SB?

  19. “I’d always understood the argument to be that Reagan effectively bankrupted the USSR because they wouldn’t accept that they couldn’t compete militarily. That their participation in the arms race was not a failure on a military level, but on an economic one.”

    That’s what I understand, besides I’d credit Gorbachev ending the USSR.

  20. Splatterbottom

    RM, I answered you but am still in moderation.

    BT, Zinn was a member of the soviet funded CPUSA.

  21. Guilty by association?

  22. SB:
    But there will always be fanatics incapable of taking a balanced view.

    Yes, and each one laying equally as passionate a claim as you do to moderation and objectivity, I’m sure. Oh, wait – you were talking about Reagan’s apologists, weren’t you?

    uniquerhys:
    Communism pales in comparison to the 1000+ years of tyranny due to feudal collaboration between the Catholic Church and the European monarchies pre-Enlightenment. Modern tyrants may be more efficient at killing due to better weapons, but none of them have lasted more than a few decades. Not centuries of constant oppression.

    You might see things differently if you had a personal stake in the matter – say, if you were a Catholic with a life-long obsessional hatred of Teh Left.

  23. “Howard Zinn (August 24, 1922 – January 27, 2010) was an American historian, author, political activist, playwright, intellectual and Professor of Political Science at Boston University from 1964 to 1988.[2] He wrote more than 20 books, which included his best-selling and influential A People’s History of the United States.[3] Zinn wrote extensively about the civil rights, civil liberties and anti-war movements.”

    Yeah, what an “idiot arse-licker”

    By the way, Zinn denied he ever was a member of the CPUSA.

  24. haha, i like how when confronted with the fact the Zinn was a greater man than SB could ever dream of being, SB just throws out some wild accusations to back it up.

    What a clown you are SB.

    And if that’s not a measure of just how far to the right the ‘centre’ in America has moved in the last 25 years then nothing is.
    This is spot on. Any left wing politician with an once of credibility would denounce Reagan as the scum that he is.
    So strange that people are still ignorant or stupid enough to believe that Obama is left wing…

  25. Splatterbottom

    Rob J: “Zinn denied he ever was a member of the CPUSA.”

    Yes. He was a liar as well.

    UniQ & Buns: communism killed over 100m people – the biggest killing spree in history. Nothing else comes close.

  26. Well if he’s guilty by association then so are you, you’re a member of the Catholic Church whose priests have many times comitted heinous crimes and had them covered up by the institution. You want to cop that? …. Didnt tink so

    Your description that he’s an ‘idiot arse-licker’ is ridiculous but typical coming from you.

    I let this one pass earlier because it was too easy, you wrote:

    “But there will always be fanatics incapable of taking a balanced view.”

    FFS, you’re a hypocrite of the highest degree, read your own ridiculous posts.

    PS – Ha, I read your link, it doesn’t say he’s a liar and it offers no proof that he was, an informant made the claim (according to the FBI). Who gives a fuck about the FBIs conclusions during the McCarthy era?

  27. Rob
    “But there will always be fanatics incapable of taking a balanced view.”

    FFS, you’re a hypocrite of the highest degree, read your own ridiculous posts.

    The hypocrisy of people like SB is truly amazing isn’t it?
    He wont apply it to himself though, SB’s biggest fear is probably his own reflection.
    Cant blame him really – If i had spent so much of my life being such a useless hollier than thou twit, I wouldn’t want to do much self analyzing either.
    Much easier for people like SB to continue the charade.

    Who gives a fuck about the FBIs conclusions during the McCarthy era?
    I would ask who really gives a fuck about what SB thinks? I bet even his own kids think he’s a right goose.
    I only bothered to reply in case people reading this might not have known who Howard Zinn was, and bought into SB’s claim that basically he was a Stalinist Hack, which would be quite unfair on all concerned.

  28. Splatterbottom

    Rob J, contempt is the only reasonable reaction to fools who prostituted their intelligence and integrity in the service of communism, long after the murderous nature of communism was well known. Of course modern leftists are much more forgiving of these droogs, all the while vilifying people who support democratic institutions (like Beck and Limbaugh). Such is the hypocrisy of the left.

    Communism was a calamity for human kind. The heroes are those who spoke bravely against it. The scum are the sycophantic leftist western intellectuals who worked tirelessly in the service of these murderous regimes. The modern leftists who make excuses for them are hardly better.

    Take an example. Malcolm Muggeridge and Walter Duranty were both Western journalists reporting from Moscow. Muggeridge went to the Ukraine and reported on the state enforced mass starvation of the peasants there. For his trouble he was sacked by the Guardian newspaper. Duranty stayed in Moscow and reported the party line which was happily published by the NYT and won a Pulitzer Prize for his efforts. Zinn was no better than Duranty.

  29. Wah the left, the left, the sky is falling. I gotta be honest SB, I read the first few lines of your obsessive vitriol and gave up.. Sorry, you wastde keystrokes.

    But my point stands, Zinn is guilty because you and the FBI claim that he was a member of an organisation funded by Moscow, you’re a member of the Catholic Church, if Zinn is guilty of Moscow’s crimes then you’re guilty of the Church’s (heinous) crimes (of paedophilia and other varieties of child abuse).

    Before you get upset that I’m having a pop at your beliefs (even though you constantly spew bile at people whose beliefs differ to yours (anyone left ogf Ronal Raegan 😉 )) I’m not, I’m merely pointing out your rank, incessant hypocrisy.

  30. “Lynot, the interesting thing about Readers Digest was they were far more correct about communism than the leftist orthodoxy of the day. Their readers were much better informed about this issue than those who read idiot arse-lickers like Howard Zinn or Eric Hobsbawm. Of course these mindless stooges are still respected by the modern left.”

    The ‘Readers Digest’ had about the political equivalence, and was about as informative as our very own ‘Womens Day’ The same people that read it, also thought T.V. shows like ‘My three sons, and leave it to Beaver’ were doco’s on your typical average American family way of life.

    But back to Raygun, he was a narcissistic half wit, probably on par in the i.q. stakes with George Bush. He was an inveterate liar, and is on record as claiming he flew bombing missions over Europe during WW2, when he was in reality, selling war bonds.

    But as usual it’s not about Raygun, it’s your old hobby horse communism. Don’t worry S.B. the night mares you have about Reds under the beds, and being taken in the night to a Gulag in the inner suburbs of where you live, in time will all go away. You will rest easy in your bed, because the bogey man of communism is long gone. Beside there never ever was/has been anything even resembling communism, anytime, any where.

  31. narcoticmusing

    ‘And if that’s not a measure of just how far to the right the ‘centre’ in America has moved in the last 25 years then nothing is.’

    The problem is that Ronald is left wing by current republican standards.

  32. narcoticmusing

    “while vilifying people who support democratic institutions (like Beck and Limbaugh).”

    SB, I gotta say, they are doing enough to vilify themselves, they don’t need the Left’s help. Consider Beck’s complete lack of respect for the atrocities of the Nazi’s, whom he use to describe anyone that doesn’t agree with him. His opposition to freedom of speech (ie someone having an opinion other than his) isn’t very democratic either.

  33. Wah the left, the left, the sky is falling. I gotta be honest SB, I read the first few lines of your obsessive vitriol and gave up.. Sorry, you wastde keystrokes.

    Exactly. You don’t need to read his posts. They’re all the same. Is it possible he has no idea how boring it is?

  34. SB reminds me of the kid in this Seinfeld clip:

  35. Reagan = October Surprise, Guns for drugs for hostages/Iran contra, war on drugs and crack epidemic (refer to Gary Webb’s reporting and the CIA admissions that followed if you don’t believe me.) S & L Scandal – Franklin, & rumours of male prostitutes in the white house, Nicuragua, school of Americas (Led to destabilisation of Mexico in current open source/free for all drug war.) Grenada. Inslaw/Promis and the insane can of worms that leads to.

    Significantly upped the ante in the war on drugs while his admin supported and protected anti communist cocaine dealers (see G Webb etc), and who knows how much US govt (cops, spies etc) involvement/corruption was actually involved (see conflict between investigater Sherman Block’s comments on the report and what the report actually contained etc etc)

    This is a great height, they are the poor down there so Ronnie pisses on them. Voodoo economics, continued 70s programs (mostly Carters) of deregulation, promoting privatisation overseas etc etc. Fascist treatment of labour. The hijacking of the NLRB, the air traffic controllers strike, promotion of the illegal treatment of workers etc etc etc etc

    Could I go on about the cuts to taxes for the rich and program cuts for the poor for the next half hour, and mention various other corruption scandals @EPA fore xample. Yes I could but I think I’d rather find the crucifucks online and listen to Hinkley had a Vision.

  36. Splatterbottom

    RobJ, Zinn’s offence was his support of the most murderous totalitarian ideology the world has ever seen, when he should have known better. This was quite common among western intellectuals of the time. There is something ridiculously credulous about the way the trendy elite types jump on the latest bandwagon. Communism was classic – who could argue against its egalitarian doctrine. Unfortunately it was a crock of shit.

    Choosing a religious belief is an entirely different thing. I am not advocating the implementing a political regime. My only political demand is to have sufficient freedom to hold my beliefs without interfering with anyone else. To somehow equate this with supporting murderous regimes is insane.

    Lynot, “Beside there never ever was/has been anything even resembling communism, anytime, any where.”

    Good to see the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy is still alive.

    Communism is relevant to any assessment of Reagan, given his role in defeating it. Although communism now has a pungent stench attached to its name and many of the reds under the bed have been flushed out, they haven’t scuttled away, so much as donned green camouflage.

  37. All these derogatory comments about Ron. What did he used to say to his opponents again? Oh yes.

    “Well there you go again”

  38. Yeah, well now the turds dead so we can (if you haven’t already) dance on his grave then piss on it and walk away.

  39. Then come back and do it again.

    Not only was an arsewipe of a president, he ate babies and dined on kittens.

    No he didn’t.

    What he did was buttfuck the future with a jackhammer. His karma will bite hard.

    had just turned 10 as 1980 broke, and 20 as 1990 did. I grew up then – during the 80s and his time in power. It was a malignant time and so much of the virulent nastiness of our time right now can be laid at the feet of Reagan and his admin, and Bush sr.

    Name something thats wrong with the world in the last 20 yrs and there is a fair chance those creeps have some if not all of the responsibility. Reagans admin also shot kennedy, nuked pearl harbour and are the real reason jesus was crucified and the dinosaurs died out.

    Not to mention Afghanistan post 1990 – their fault

    Iraq post 1983 – their fasult. Mexico post 2005 – their fault,

    Central america post 2005 (and prior to it quite regularly too) – their fault, the rest of the middle east – their fault,

    the Vatican being able to cover up its many crimes for another 20 years – their fault,

    whatever bad shit happened in SE Asia post 1985 – their fault. (Want a list?)

    That the Oligarchs looted Russia and now are seen as a democratic force and an arsehole like Putin rules Russia (whatever his position) – their fault.

    That the public assets and resources of so many nations have been sold for a song since the 80s – their fault.

    That right wing Christian politics is taken seriously these days (creationism taught as science. Holy Fuck thats dumb) – their fault.

    That the icecaps are melting and the human race is basically fucked – well partly their fault at least.

    That since 1980 an immense proportion of the planets wealth has shifted into an increasingly smaller group of people – their fault.

    That the prison figures in the US are the way they are, and the odds of non white Americans being killed by the actions of the state are so much higher than white ones – their fault.

    etc etc etc etc

    Someone was right about a ship of fools.

    I often wonder what the world would be like if Reagan were in Casablanca and Bogart became POTUS in 1980. Well not that often, but I’ll bet PKD could have written a good yarn about it.

  40. I’d love to find out who these ex-Commo Greens are. Can SB’s response come out of moderation?

    And I hope my posts don’t get eaten by WordPress like they were yesterday.

  41. Splatterbottom

    RM: “Names, please.”

    Lee Rhiannon.

    Voluntarily joining the SPA is beneath contempt. Her half-arsed non-apology is exactly what you would expect from someone still cavorting in the sewer of history that is the radical left.

    Unsurprisingly she was caught up in scandal about her use of the perks of office.

    Also Adam Bandt certainly knew what he was doing back in his Trotskyite days. He spelled out his plan for the Greens as follows:

    “Supporting the Greens would perhaps be the most effective strategy at the next election. The Greens are in many ways bourgeois, but they have been able to exert influence over the Government’s agenda. They are all we have at the moment [and] building a ‘new’ party simply to get votes can be absurd”

    Watermelons indeed!

  42. Splatterbottom

    RM I reposted the comment, but it is still stuck, as is a comment letting you know that I reposted.

  43. Hang on, this comment –

    “Supporting the Greens would perhaps be the most effective strategy at the next election. The Greens are in many ways bourgeois, but they have been able to exert influence over the Government’s agenda. They are all we have at the moment [and] building a ‘new’ party simply to get votes can be absurd”

    – made by Adam Bandt (16 years ago, mind you) is your best evidence that Bandt is a communist? Wow. Joe McCarthy, is that you?

  44. Splatterbottom

    Why is that when seeking to explain terrorism hatespeech is not a relevant cause of violence, even when explicitly cited by the terrorist as the cause of their actions? Clearly blasphemy laws are inspired by mainstream Islamic teachings on blasphemy

    Buns, the quote is evidence of Bandt’s strategy when he was a Trotsky fanboy. Clearly he has succeeded in infesting the rancid red heart of the watermelon party.

    Anyone who signs off “Towards an anti-capitalist, anti-social democratic, internationalist movement, Adam Bandt” is a dead set Trot.

  45. Splatterbottom

    Ignore the first paragraph above – I’ve been cutting and parting out of Word because WordPress eats too many commentsl.

  46. “Good to see the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy is still alive.”

    The only fallacy here SB, is your contention that Reagen help defeat communism. He did no such thing, and unlike your usual attempt at revisionist history, Reagen’s crimes are recorded for posterity.

    As for Reds under the beds what a crock. I repeat never was/is any true communists apart from a few poets. What we had was a load of totalitarian regimes that all used different names, to serve the same purpose. That’s to make themselves rich and powerful at the expense of the poor sods at the bottom. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Reagen, Bush they all had/have the same M.O.

    Anyways I have Smurfs under my bed.

    Here’s looking at you kid.

  47. Splatterbottom

    Lynot, if you think Reagan and Bush are in the same category of tyrant as Stalin Mao and Hitler, you are truly deluded.

    And what is “true communism”?

  48. SB:
    “Buns, the quote is evidence of Bandt’s strategy when he was a Trotsky fanboy. Clearly he has succeeded in infesting the rancid red heart of the watermelon party.”

    I’m asking what evidence you have for your claim that Bandt is a communist. So far, you haven’t given any.

  49. “Lynot, if you think Reagan and Bush are in the same category of tyrant as Stalin Mao and Hitler, you are truly deluded.”

    Try telling that to the Iraq’s, Vietnamese, Palestinians, South Americans, etc, etc, etc.

    I won’t bore you with a definition of true communism, it is an ideology that you couldn’t/wouldn’t understand. Besides it was you who tried to lecture me on “Human Nature” was it not? So as I now know your true character and belief system, I will spare myself the time to try and explain it to you.

  50. “Lynot, if you think Reagan and Bush are in the same category of tyrant as Stalin Mao and Hitler, you are truly deluded.”

    At least you admit Reagan and Bush were tyrants.

  51. The original diggers were true commies sb.

  52. Communism was a calamity for human kind.
    That’s a pretty difficult assertion to prove, seeing that it has never been practiced. Human greed, arrogance and selfishness quickly put paid to any attempt.
    Capitalism is facing a similar crisis.. I wonder what the difference between the enforced mass starvation of the peasants in the Ukraine and the plight of the residents in the ghettos of the US is. How long will capitalism survive if China decides to call in the debt owed to it by the US?
    Democracy has yet to be proven. Australia is probably the closest in today’s world. With compulsory voting we have achieved the by the people bit, pity about the of the people and for the people bits. Oh well 1 out of 3 aint bad.
    All of these are philosophical questions, suitable for debate by academics but kept away from the real world

  53. Splatterbottom

    Buns, this should give you a clue about Bandt’s leanings, or at least his tendency.

    Lynot: “Try telling that to the Iraq’s, Vietnamese, Palestinians, South Americans, etc, etc, etc.”

    Cunt-headed moral equivalence.

    “I won’t bore you with a definition of true communism, it is an ideology that you couldn’t/wouldn’t understand. ….. So as I now know your true character and belief system, I will spare myself the time to try and explain it to you.”

    The evasive arrogance of a bullshit merchant.

    Jules, Chumbawumba are boring. David Thomas, Alistair Hulett and Eric Bogle are much better.

    Lindsayms: “Communism was a calamity for human kind.
    That’s a pretty difficult assertion to prove, seeing that it has never been practiced. Human greed, arrogance and selfishness quickly put paid to any attempt.”

    The last refuge of the truly deluded is the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. And the reason communism failed is not because of human nature, but because it failed to take account of human nature, and believed instead that human nature could be changed!

  54. “The evasive arrogance of a bullshit merchant.”

    LOL, WTF is this:

    “He had a major role in the fall of communism,

    And

    He left the country economically better off than he found it.

    Erm SB, we can read your own bullshit from the very first post you made in this thread! Hypocrisy is your thing though, I shouldn’t be surprised.

    “Chumbawumba are boring”

    Each to his own, however the picture on the YouTube clip is from Kes, a fantastic book and film. Give it to your kids to read, read it yourself if you haven’t already.

    “The last refuge of the truly deluded”

    LOL – Here we go again.

  55. “Jules, Chumbawumba are boring. David Thomas, Alistair Hulett and Eric Bogle are much better.”

    Yeah I know, but I’d never heard that version of the song. After all it would be too big a cliche to put a Billy Bragg song in the comments here.

    As far as your banging on about communism tho, what you are really objecting to isn’t the ideology.

    The ideology was just a cover for the people in power in the Soviet Union to indulge the unfettered power of the state for their own ends. The same thing happens whenever the state has too much power, whether its a leftist ideology or a right wing one that the state hides behind. The USSR may have been totalitarian, but it wasn’t a dictatorship (cept briefly). It even had a version of the seperation of powers (KGB vs Red Army vs the Party) that “evolved” into existence post ww2.

    The “state” is the coldest of cold monsters, as someone mentioned once, and its no surprise that when left to its own devices it’ll indulge in horrible things. Giving the “state” the only power/ownership over property as happened under most commo regimes was a stupid, is a disastrous move. Its the same sort of dumbness that allows corporations the legal rights of people, but on a much greater level.

  56. Splatterbottom

    RobJ I stick by those statements.

    Jules, I love Billy Bragg: “Revolution is just a T-Shirt away”. Sometimes I feel he is talking to me: “You’re a dedicated swallower of fascism”, (although of course he got that wrong). Also, there is a great live version (with trumpet) of Levi Stubbs Tears on the Accident Waiting to Happen single. Let me know if you don’t have it (splatterbottom – at-gmail.com).

  57. The evasive arrogance of a bullshit merchant.

    It takes one to know one.

  58. Splatterbottom

    You see Buns, this is where you are wrong. I am well aware of Reagan’s defects and in fact I linked to criticisms of him, including one at Common Dreams, which I would have thought was your type of place. But because I am a creature of moderation and balance, I also noted some good things about him. Of course the true ideologues will not allow him any good points at all.

  59. “RobJ I stick by those statements.”

    I know and I chuckle.

  60. You’re easily convinced of your credentials as a moderate, aren’t you, SB? The rest of us, not so much.

  61. Reagan did a good job on inflation and unemployment, he tripled the national debt, anyone could do that.

    Costello did a good job on balancing the budget, he sold Telstra, it sold for far more than it will ever be worth, anyone could do that.

  62. Of course the true ideologues will not allow him any good points at all.

    Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I’m pretty sure there’s nobody here who wouldn’t allow any good points about Reagan.

    Also, can I clarify: would people who wouldn’t allow any bad points about him also be “true ideologues”, or are there only “true ideologues” at one end of the political spectrum?

  63. Splatterbottom

    Buns: ” there’s nobody here who wouldn’t allow any good points about Reagan.”

    So what do you think his main achievements were?

    “are there only “true ideologues” at one end of the political spectrum”

    Both sides, silly.

    As you know, I try to find the golden mean in any situation – that point where the pros and cons are balanced and appreciated. My Reassurobuddy is a 4000 model. She is always telling me to understand other points of view and walk the middle path.

  64. Splatterbottom

    By the way Buns, the left-right political spectrum is fairly meaningless. The spectrum that runs from totalitarian to anarchist is more meaningful. Somewhere in the middle is a range where freedom of speech, rule of law and representative government coalesce. Most of us are within that range. We should acknowledge that commonality more often, and save our real venom for our true enemies – those who want to tear society down or lock it up as a police state.

  65. “Cunt-headed moral equivalence.”

    SB that’s not very Christian. Besides Cunts are useful and stink, which of those two facts apply to your own good self.

    “In politics, yesterday’s lie is attacked only to flatter today’s. ”
    (Jean Rostand)

    As for ‘Bullshit’ SB you are having a laff again . You have gone past making it a virtue, and have gone on into the realms of making it a science.

    As for ‘Arrogance’ again the stuff of true comedy. Your attempt to justify the absolute blunder you made of putting ol Ronny on a pedestal, sticks out like the proverbial dogs nurries. Raygun was a buffoon, even revisionist righteous right wingers cringe at his very name. Sorry me ol China, but you are full of it.

  66. ” We should acknowledge that commonality more often, and save our real venom for our true enemies – those who want to tear society down or lock it up as a police state.”

    Joh Bjelke Peterson ‘The greatest thing that could happen in Queensland and the nation is when we get rid of all the media. Then we could live in peace and tranquility’.

  67. I’d would be remiss of me not to take the opportunity to add a swipe at the ‘B’ grade actor whose legacy is conveniently being re-written by the red neck right.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/02/what-palin-and-other-gop-leaders-doesnt-get-about-ronald-reagan/71178/

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