The shooting by Israeli special forces of civilians on ships heading towards Gaza this week raises for me one very critical question: even on Israel’s version of events, why was killing necessary? If special forces are going to board a ship in order to seize control, shouldn’t they be wearing riot gear and armed with non-lethal crowd control alternatives? Tasers, O/C Spray, ASP batons, full protective riot gear, that sort of thing?
The (heavily edited) footage released by the IDF does seem to show the commandos being set upon when they landed – but so what? That’s akin to saying that police at protests that get violent should, as a first resort, just get out the guns and start shooting. They should be properly protected in gear that pretty much neutralises anything from blows with sticks to molotovs (it’s what our police forces use), and then they should be trained to subdue aggressors nonlethally.
And let’s be clear here – the timing of the assault was entirely at Israel’s discretion. They picked the time and the method of interception. They had time to prepare. It was in their hands, and this was the result.
If they wanted to test old alliances and inspire new opponents, well – mission accomplished.
UPDATE: Good news for Israel: it gets to run the inquiry into its actions.
Moved On 
“The (heavily edited) footage released by the IDF does seem to show the commandos being set upon when they landed – but so what?”
So what indeed, aren’t people allowed to defend themselves when their ship is stormed by commandos in international waters in the night?
Metal poles, knives, other ‘weapons of opportunity’ are no match for highly trained, battle hardened commandos armed with automatic weapons.. As per usual Israel responds disproportionately with no regard for human life…
Of course Jeremy is right. The Israeli soldiers had no business at all protecting their own lives.
Sadly the only automatic weapons the Israeli soldiers were armed with were paintball guns. The poor fools though they were dealing with peace activists. They should have assumed that these peace activists would have tried to kill them, and let them have their fun. Killing is a basic human right of your modern peace activist.
And RobJ what do you mean “defend themselves”? Stabbing people? Bashing them with iron bars? That isn’t self defense, that is what initiated the violence.
If the Israelis wanted to test the knee-jerk idiocy of western leaders, well mission accomplished.
Yeah, i kinda think they have no right boarding the ship.
Also no right to enforce a blockage on Gaza that causes people to want to break the blockade.
The best are quotes about heavily armed commandos having to kill unarmed or lightly armed police activists in self defense…
Queue a crazy rant by SB…
“Of course Jeremy is right. The Israeli soldiers had no business at all protecting their own lives. “
That is of course not what I said.
“Queue a crazy rant by SB…”
Because of the moderation system, his crazy rant appears above your comment. Well predicted though.
OK SB, maybe the weapons weren’t automatic fact is civilians died from gun shot wounds.
“And RobJ what do you mean “defend themselves”? Stabbing people? Bashing them with iron bars?”
What’s wrong with that when you’re being stormed in INTERNATIONAL waters by highly trained commandos? Fact is if you believe in the right of self defence (which you obviously don’t) they would have been justified in shooting the commandos, had they had firearms in their possession.
“[Killing is a basic human right of your modern peace activist.
WTF are you babbling about? No Israeli commandos were killed, nine civilians were though, here’s a hint SB, when you go over to Bolt’s you have to understand that he doesn’t always deal in facts, he prefers hyperbole and dog whistles. Didn’t you know that? LOL
Jeremy, I take it from the absence of comment on this in your post that the ‘peace activists’ bear no responsibility for their actions.
What is your point about “international waters”, RobJ?
And are you denying that the ‘peace activists’ tried to kill the Israeli soldiers? Or merely that the Israeli soldiers had a right to defend themselves?
“Jeremy, I take it from the absence of comment on this in your post that the ‘peace activists’ bear no responsibility for their actions.”
I condemn their violence, whoever “they” turn out to be and whatever precisely “they” turn out to have done.
And back to the fact that the agents of the IDF, acting in an official capacity on its behalf, shot and killed civilians without trying non-lethal methods of subduing them.
How do you know that they did not try non-lethal methods? Here is one soldier’s account:
What else should he have done?
Heh SB you’re rather confused about who stormed who. Are you claiming that the peace activists had no right to defend themselves in INTERNATIONAL waters. I realise you don’t understand the significance but here it is, they weren’t in Israel, by you’re own rationale if you were cruising through the Mediteranean and Israeli commandos repelled from a helicopter started blasting you with paint balls (in the middle of the night) and you picked up a metal pole, so did your wife/girlfriend/daughter/son/husband they shot your partner DEAD you’d side with the Israeli commandos?
….I didn’t think so.
SB, Israel should not have sent them onto the ship with only those options. They should’ve had O/C spray, tasers, ASP batons – nonlethal gear to subdue anyone daring to resist their attack on a ship in international waters.
SB,
You still haven’t explained this asinine statement:
“Killing is a basic human right of your modern peace activist.”
Who did they kill? Just spouting random shit (that you probably picked up from some wingnut post at Bolt’s) doesn’t make it so. Next you’ll be calling them terrorists (another common wingnut tactic)
RobJ, there was nothing unjustified about boarding the ship in international waters. The ship had the express purpose of breaking a blockade, and declined to alter its course.
its a PR disaster, propagandists will be really earning their secret paychecks this week
“The ship had the express purpose of breaking a blockade, and declined to alter its course.”
…and Israel has the right to tell people what to do in international waters, after they were voted Lords of the Sea by all the countries in the world.
“its a PR disaster, propagandists will be really earning their secret paychecks this week”
Oh, they are, karl – check out @IsraelGlobalPR…*
*Almost as good satire as @BPGlobalPR.
RobJ:
The point is simple. If the peace activists hadn’t tried to kill the soldiers, this would have ended peacefully. The reason it didn’t was precisely because the ‘peace activists’ did try to kill the soldiers. The argument seems to be that the peace activists had some kind of right to attack the soldiers, and the soldiers did not have a right to prevent themselves from being killed.
If you actually want to know why people were killed, it comes down to the fact that the ‘peace activists’ tried to kill the soldiers, who then defended themselves.
Jeremy, it is beside the point to suggest ways the Israelis could have better dealt with the problem. Their real fault was believing that the ‘peace activists’ would in fact be peaceful.
“Their real fault was believing that the ‘peace activists’ would in fact be peaceful.”
Um, no, it was shooting civilians. It was storming a ship without nonlethal means to deal with any kind of resistance.
As for “defending themselves”, you are of course assuming that the IDF version of events is accurate – remember, they’re deliberately blocking other sources of information from getting out.
Jeremy, under international law Israel has every right to do what they did, your ignorant posturing notwithstanding:
More lies, Jeremy. They in fact had non-lethal means. The fact is that these proved ineffective. They would have been better off with real machine guns.
Also, the other side of the story is being told. Last night on BBC World Service it was said that the ‘peace activists’ were asleep on the deck when the Israelis were firing on them as they came down the ropes. The problem is that this story is just not credible.
At some point people have to understand that if they try to kill soldiers, they may be killed themselves. This is not some form form of organised bloodsport where the soldiers just have to take what ever is dished out to them.
Say that did apply here – which is by no means established – check out s46:
“SECTION II : PRECAUTIONS IN ATTACK
46. With respect to attacks, the following precautions shall be taken:
(a) those who plan, decide upon or execute an attack must take all feasible measures to gather information which will assist in determining whether or not objects which are not military objectives are present in an area of attack;
(b) in the light of the information available to them, those who plan, decide upon or execute an attack shall do everything feasible to ensure that attacks are limited to military objectives;
(c) they shall furthermore take all feasible precautions in the choice of methods and means in order to avoid or minimize collateral casualties or damage; and
(d) an attack shall not be launched if it may be expected to cause collateral casualties or damage which world be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the attack as a whole; an attack shall be cancelled or suspended as soon as it becomes apparent that the collateral casualties or damage would be excessive.”
They did have some nonlethal means at their disposal, but they were ineffective. They did not try alternative means like tasers or O/C spray.
And it is your assumption that the people on that ship were trying to “kill” the soldiers. They may well have just been trying to repel them.
“….I didn’t think so.”
I guess I was wrong! 😀
Anyway:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or – They didn’t have reasonable grounds and this will become clear in the coming days when Israel finds no contraband (the shit on their list they made up doesn’t count and has no standing in law)
breaching a blockade, – They never breached the blockade, Israel has NO right to blockade international waters and I would contend that the blockade of Gaza is wrong (and inhumane)
and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly
refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or
capture; – They hadn’t breached the first two so this point is moot.
SB Fails yet again (I keep telling you, those wingnuts at Bolt’s are full of shit)
{At some point people have to understand that if they try to kill soldiers, they may be killed themselves. }
Like I say SB if you’re ever attacked by a soldier just remember you have no right of self defence. The flotilla DID NOT storm the Israeli’s, it was the other way around! I know you realise this but it seems that you’d rather paint yourself as an idiot than admit you’re wrong.
RobJ: “you’d rather paint yourself as an idiot than admit you’re wrong.”
A classic turn of phrase, totally inapplicable to me, of course, but a classic nevertheless.
I thought peace activists were non-violent types who engaged in passive resistance. That clearly was the mistaken belief of the Israelis. When the Israeli soldiers were sliding down the rope, they weren’t attacking anyone. They were being attacked before they hit the ground. That is where the violence started.
Jeremy, section 47 clearly doesn’t apply to the boarding of a ship, but to an attack upon it. It may have been relevant if the Israelis were considering torpedoing the vessel.
Isn’t it all perfectly clear?
Armed soldiers have a legitimate right to defend themselves with deadly force when confronted with unarmed civilians, and unarmed civilians when confronted with armed soldiers….well, that’s just completely unjustified violence. Shocking I tell you, just shocking.
Jeremy & Rob,
“It was storming a ship without nonlethal means to deal with any kind of resistance.”
and
“aren’t people allowed to defend themselves when their ship is stormed by commandos in international waters in the night?…. ”
I don’t support the method Israel has used here, although strictly legally speaking they probably were within their rights to board the ships, there’s numerous options that they could’ve taken – I still think they should’ve conducted the operation in daylight with the international press present to witness it.
Having said that I think it should be pointed out that dropping troops brandishing paintball guns one at a time into the middle of a mob on the deck of a ship isn’t exactly “storming” it — so lets not get too carried away with hyperbole.
Here are a couple of questions that spring to my mind:
1. Why did the peace protestors on just one of the six ships decide to attack the troops ? – I think its telling that this particular ship had no western press or diplomats on board.
2. Why were these same peace protestors singing a jihadi hymn about killing Jews prior to the interception.
3. What exactly were they defending themselves against ? — the Israeli troops weren’t assaulting them and as to the claims that you Rob, have referred to about the soldiers firing on them before they boarded, the video clearly shows the troops abseiling down the ropes and being beaten by a mob as, and in some instances, before they land — if these people were being fired upon I hardly think they’d be congregating together in a group in the open.
4. How do you reconcile quotes such as this from one of the “peace protestors” on this ship
“We await one of two good things – to achieve martyrdom or to reach the shore of Gaza” and “As Much as the Heroes on the Flotilla Want to Reach Gaza, The Option of Martyrdom Is More Desirable to Them” from Professor Abd Al-Fatah Nu’man in Gaza, with any sort of peaceful intent ?
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/2490.htm
Oh and Jeremy, section 46 that you have quoted refers to the intention of sinking a ship, not boarding it for inspection.
I saw Hilary Clinton briefly on the news this morning saying that the present situation of Gaza is unsustainable — I think she’s right, but I’m not sure if either side has the political will to enter into genuine negotiations in order to bring about a solution.
“That clearly was the mistaken belief of the Israelis. ”
Are you that naive that you think that Israeli intelligence were as mistaken as you? So, why did they pack heat?
Boarding a ship in international waters without invitation via abseiling from a chopper is NOT an act of peace. At minimum it’s an act of piracy. Turkey could quite rightly interpret it as an act of war.
Now of course by your very own rationale Iran would be able to board any ship it likes in the Strait of Hormuz, tankers, US warships, Au warships, UK warships, pleasure craft….anything
‘they probably were within their rights to board the ships,”
regardless the ships passnegers had EVERY right to defend themselves, do you dispute this?
“so lets not get too carried away with hyperbole.”
OK you first – “mob”???? Suppose it isn’t as bad as Hall’s “Islamists” tag…
Rob,
“OK you first – “mob”???? Suppose it isn’t as bad as Hall’s “Islamists” tag”
Have you looked at the video — its a mob.
“regardless the ships passnegers had EVERY right to defend themselves, do you dispute this?”
As I asked, what were they defending themselves against — they weren’t being attacked.
gavinm’s comments are an example of the very odd idea floating around some quarters that the correct response to civil disobedience is the application of deadly force by military special forces.
Not that this can even be described as civil disobediance. By Israels own claims, Gaza is not under occupation and therefore the waters off the coast of Gaza fall under the jurisdiction of the PA. The ships were never to enter Israeli waters.
(Those who remember their histroy will recall that part of Israels justification for the 6 Day War was the blockade (in name mostly) of the Straits of Hormuz, which Israel claimed constituted an act of war. )
102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.
From SBs San Remo link … particularly 102(b)
Which brings us back to the act of war Israel engaged in against Turkey by attacking a ship flying their flag in international waters, using the plainly false casus belli that they were protecting a valid blockade.
According to reports from the ships themselves and survivors, they were fired on from other ships and the air. Before the attempts to board them.
What does the IDF expect? Well actually it seems it expects to be able to do what it wants, and usually it does. And its certainly enabled by the extreme right-wing psychos that have run Israel for years.
Oh and there was a member of the Knesset on board the boat that was attacked.
Thats how retarded this whole situation is and defending Israel’s actions … well they attacked a boat in international waters then whined all over the international media when the people on the boat fought back.
Thats all there is to it.
If you want to defend an attack on civilians in international waters and complain about people who fought back go for it.
It just makes you look like a bloodthirsty cretin.
[Have you looked at the video — its a mob.]
And have you noticed the death toll? If they’re a mob then the commandos are murderers. International waters Gavin, the Israeli’s were NOT invited on board thus the boarding itself is an act of aggression.
What would you have done (military training aside) just stood there, I mean c’mon, they’re Israeli soldierss, they’re famous for using lethal force against kids throwing stones.
[As I asked, what were they defending themselves against — they weren’t being attacked.]
Gavin, the commandos boarded the ship without invitation, I can forgive the CIVILIANS on board in INTERNATIONAL waters for not expecting the commandos to deliver chocolates and flowers..
RobJ I think technically piracy has to be done by and for private gain. If state actors do it its not piracy its an invasion of the territory of the state whose flag the ship is flying under.
That also means if anyone actually has a right to hold an inquiry under their jurisdiction it is Turkey.
sorry about the square brackets all.
RobJ: regardless the ships passengers had EVERY right to defend themselves, do you dispute this?
They initiated the violence. They weren’t defending themselves. The Israeli soldiers defended themselves after being attacked, but apparently you think they had no right to do so.
Jules, it was Turkey that engaged in a deliberate provocation of Israel by sending the flotilla.
A handy chart for the IDF in planning future actions.
So what SB? Provocation is no defense. Especially to murder.
Double especially of what appears to be an illegal blockade, going on those sea laws you linked to.
The important point to note is that in the first graphic, the soldiers have machine guns, not paintball guns. I wonder if the Israelis have learned their lesson.
The relevant defense is not provocation Jules, but self-defense.
nawagadj,
“gavinm’s comments are an example of the very odd idea floating around some quarters that the correct response to civil disobedience is the application of deadly force by military special forces.”
And this is based on ?
Rob,
How about addressing the questions I asked.
As to what would I have done — I would’ve complied with the request to inspect the cargo which was communicated several times to them before they were boarded.
The question of the legality of this operation is one I’m not sure of — yes it was conducted in international waters, (you don’t have to shout, by the way), but Israel is in a declared state of war with Hamas, which means under international law they are entitled to board and search ships bound for Hamas’ territory regardless of the waters those ships are in — there’s plenty of precedents for this throughout numerous wars.
“Gavin, the commandos boarded the ship without invitation…”
I think you’ll find blockade runners are always boarded without invitation Rob.
“I think you’ll find blockade runners are always boarded without invitation Rob.”
They hadn’t breached the blockade though Gavin. They were in International waters, not the Gazan waters that the Israeli’s think they own.
“How about addressing the questions I asked.”
If your talking about the civilian passengers I already have, how were they to know the commandos weren’t going to kill them, I mean the IDF has form for slaying children throwing stones thus I can understand completely whty the passengers decided to arm themselves (with metal poles and stuff). If it’s another question I might have missed I’ll ask you to kindly post it again, cheers.
“but Israel is in a declared state of war with Hamas”
It was Turkey who were sending the goods, what does it have to do with Hamas?
Would you have the same attitude if Iranians started boarding ships in international waters near to their own?
Self defense my arse.
If you invade another sovereign state’s territory with armed forces and the people there react it is actually them acting in self defense. Especially given reports from the flotilla and survivors about being fired on before the attempted boarding.
Rob,
My questions are in my post at 2.26.
“I already have, how were they to know the commandos weren’t going to kill them,…
Please tell me you aren’t serious. It seems that the civilians on the other 5 ships had no fear that they would be killed.
“Would you have the same attitude if Iranians started boarding ships in international waters near to their own?”
If the Iranians were at war with another country and were blockading it, they would also have the right under international law to board ships (including neutrals), in international waters that were heading to that country and inspect them for contraband. I’d have no issue with that at all.
Boarding a ship which is trying to break a blockade is not invasion, Jules.
The trouble with the ‘reports’ is that they do not make any sense. If you have both hands on the rope, then you are not coming down firing. Just look at the videos.
You are so desperate to cast the Israelis as murderers you totally ignore the facts.
“My questions are in my post at 2.26.”
OK I’m pushed for time, will read them again later.
“Please tell me you aren’t serious. It seems that the civilians on the other 5 ships had no fear that they would be killed.”
I think you need to check what I heard one woman on one of the other ships had to say, you know, having her head stamped on by Israeli commandos. Maybe you haven’t heard it yet but now that the civilians are being deported we’ll start hearing the other side of the story.
“If the Iranians were at war with another country”
OK so you would support North Korea boarding South Korean ships in international waters (near Korea).. And if any South Koreans picked up so much as a galley knife then the N Koreans would be entitled to kill them all, it would be harsh but you’d understand hey???
….AND I almost forgot, Israel isn’t at war with Turkey, Hamas didn’t send the ships.
“You are so desperate to cast the Israelis as murderers you totally ignore the facts.”
Which facts are those SB? Dead commandos = 0. Dead civilians = 9.
“And if any South Koreans picked up so much as a galley knife then the N Koreans would be entitled to kill them all, ”
They would be entitled to defend themselves if they were attacked by someone with a knife — you seem to think they should just stand there and let themselves be stabbed…Truly bizarre.
“….AND I almost forgot, Israel isn’t at war with Turkey, Hamas didn’t send the ships.”
Board and search rules can apply to neutral ships as well.
“I think you need to check what I heard one woman on one of the other ships had to say, you know, having her head stamped on by Israeli commandos. ”
I haven’t heard that — this whole incident needs to be investigated, preferably by an independent body, and any charges that arise from it should be pursued.
Unfortuneately we both know that probably won’t happen though — Israel doesn’t exactly have a history of allowing scrutiny of its operations or the actions of its personnel.
Oops forgot this —
“They hadn’t breached the blockade though Gavin. ”
I think that was kind of the point behind this (ill-conceived), Israeli operation — to stop them breaching the blockade.
North Korea boarding US flaggedships in the region, uninvited, you have no problem with that? I mean it’s OK for Israel to board a Turkish vessel because they are at war with Hamas (????) You don’t mind if they board any Australian vessel and slay anyone who dares to defend themselves??
For what it’s worth Gav, putting our differences to one side for a moment, I do realise that you think the Israelis botched this mission. (I do read your posts 😉 )
[They would be entitled to defend themselves if they were attacked by someone with a knife — you seem to think they should just stand there and let themselves be stabbed…Truly bizarre.]
Gavin, for the last time, the civilians DID NOT board an Israeli vessel, it was the other way around.
“Israel doesn’t exactly have a history of allowing scrutiny of its operations or the actions of its personnel.”
Yeah, the only video they’ll release is their own, they would have confiscated everybody elses, I don’t put much credence in their video, they’re just too easy to edit.
SB, article 102 of the link you posted at 1.23 pm June 2 this thread appears to expressly forbid the sort of blockade Israel has on Gaza.
That would make it an illegal blockade, and all claims of legitimacy re what happened hinge on it being a legal blockade.
It isn’t.
Hence no legitimacy.
“The trouble with the ‘reports’ is that they do not make any sense. If you have both hands on the rope, then you are not coming down firing. Just look at the videos.” – SB
The trouble with your logic is that its faulty. One boat reported being fired on from other boats and the air. That doesn’t mean the firing came from people who were sliding down ropes. Also, note that while they were sliding down the ropes other people in the helicopter are in a position to give covering fire.
I don’t see how the reports don’t make sense, unless you assume the only people firing were those sliding down ropes which is obviously stupid.
The boat has been fired on before boarding – the same group that shot at them attempted to board the boat carrying weapons that look like firearms, and turn out to be paintball guns loaded with pepper spray or something similar. At night.
I think the people on the boat are entitled to assume that when the soldiers land they will continue to fire weapons and the boat people would then take steps to stop that – that makes sense – they can’t shoot anyone (else?) if they are disarmed, knocked out or chucked off the boat. And when you consider that 9 people are dead (at least)…
It was probably a fair assumption.
“North Korea boarding US flaggedships in the region, uninvited, you have no problem with that? I mean it’s OK for Israel to board a Turkish vessel because they are at war with Hamas ”
As I said, if any country is at war with another, and are conducting a blockade of that country, they have the right under international law to board and inspect neutral ships, provided they follow the rules as laid down in that law — if the crews of those ships react violently, the boarding party are within their rights to defend themselves.
The Israelis definitely botched it — I think they know it too, but I doubt we’ll see them admitting that either 😉 The fall-out from this is going to be very interesting to watch.
I’d like to think it could herald the beginnings of a change in the Gaza conflict, Hilary Clinton’s comments this morning were actually promising — although I might be being a little over optimistic there.
RobJ: “Dead commandos = 0. Dead civilians = 9.”
Is this the entirety of your argument?
“so..anyone else want to try and break the siege of Gaza?”
The fall-out from this is going to be very interesting to watch.
Well, FWIW here’s an alternate view from someone who thinks it’ll just be business as usual, as it always has been.
And if there are rhetorical rebukes, they are always qualified in some way, or so gentle as to constitute a minor slap on the wrist. This will blow over and all be forgotten in a week or so.
http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2010/05/31/11174
confessions, i’d say that’s about right.
The only significant difference with this event is the damage it may cause with a current ally, Turkey, which is becoming less well disposed towards granting Israel impunity for its egregious stupidy.
Confessions, nothing will change in that region. It has been the same since 1948 – one long struggle to terminate the existence of the Jewish State.
The Jews need to understand that they only get sympathy when they passively let millions of their fellows be murdered. That is the real cause of the animosity to Israel – not enough dead Jews.
Oh SB. Your willingness to resort to over the top hysteria is why I often regard you as the Clive Palmer of this blog!
Here’s a suggestion from Dr Gray at the Centre for Arab & Islamic Studies, ANU for what Israel will probably do next time and could’ve this time:
“It is likely that the Israeli military responded as it did because it was over-confident, and yet ill-prepared for an aggressive reaction from those on the ship. If further ships try to reach Gaza, as seems likely, Israel will act differently: it will probably wait until those ships are in its territorial waters, and the military will either prepare a boarding much more meticulously, or will disable and divert ships rather than boarding them while under way. It may use the media more effectively for publicity, too, especially if weapons the like are found.”
Pity it didn’t care enough about the lives of its soldiers and the civilians on those ships to do that this time.
Silly Israeli soldiers. Fancy thinking ‘peace activists’ would not try to kill them.
Exactly SB.
The silly peace activists should have known that armed commando troops dropping into their midst in the middle of the night, only wanted to deliver pizza.
New information is out
http://www.smh.com.au/world/photographer-hit-by-stun-gun-20100602-wzdh.html
nawagadj: I still laugh when I see this that a commenter left at PP.
I linked to that above.
[Is this the entirety of your argument?]
Nice try SB but it’s crystal clear that my argument is that the blockade of Gaza is inhumane and amounts to the collective punishment of Palestinians in Gaza, of whom approximately 1 million are children.
What’s your argument again?
Rob,
I think it goes something like this – if you’re agianst the collective punishment of a million children you a terrorist lover and deserve to be shot dead by the Israli armed forces in international waters.
I linked to that above.
Oh, I didn’t see it. Then again, I haven’t read all the comments.
RobJ, your argument is that because the blockade is wrong, it must be concluded that the stabbed and beaten Israeli soldiers were not acting in self defense. In fact because those who died were peace activists it is certain that the Israeli soldiers murdered them. This is classic stupidity based not on logic, but pathetic sentimentality.
My argument is that only idiot ideologues would rush to declare the Israeli soldiers to be murderers when the available evidence suggests that they were acting in self-defense.
Oh My:
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=21163
The Gaza Flotilla Massacre: An Eyewitness Account
From the srticle:
Haneen Zoabi, who is a Palestinian Arab citizen of Israel and an MP for the National Democratic Assembly or Balad party, was on board the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed by Israeli commandos in international waters. She told Asharq Al-Awsat that “Israeli ships besieged the [Mavi Marmara] ship and began firing on it before the navy commandos rappelled [onto the deck] by rope from helicopters, firing [bullets] and a water-cannon at the activists.”
Expect the other side of the debate to dismiss this as lies and completely swallow the edited video provided by the Israeli Govt. I ask those who are so eager to swallow the Israeli govt line (regardless of their track record) to ask themselves this:
IDF confiscated all laptops and mobiles, no doubt those devices have video evidence, why doesn’t the IDF release all this video to the public domain?, If the Israeli Govt are telling the truth then it should support their story. Most of it will have time/date stamps, let us make up our own minds?
SB @1:47p yesterday… I thought peace activists were non-violent types who engaged in passive resistance. That clearly was the mistaken belief of the Israelis. When the Israeli soldiers were sliding down the rope, they weren’t attacking anyone. They were being attacked before they hit the ground. That is where the violence started.
That has to be one of the best statements I’ve read in forever… I picture SB lambasting an English archer after the battle of Hastings.
“Why did you shoot at that French knight? He was only galloping his horse towards you over the field. He wasn’t attacking you”
And yet, it would appear that SB feels that “preemptive” defense is only acceptable by the more heavily armed party in any given conflict.
Can you approve/delete my 11:23 am post please?
Stripey Dingo, your analogy is completely wrong. The ships knew that they were breaking a blockade, they knew that the Israelis wanted only to divert them to Ashdod, and they knew that they were not in any danger. Muslim terrorists often say that they love death more than the Jews love life. This is just another example of that. they provoked violence for the sake of publicity.
What was going on started as a political stunt designed to put pressure on Israel. Unfortunately some of the Turkish terrorists on board upped the ante and tried to kill the soldiers. That is the reason people died.
It always happens that way RobJ. I have a post which completely sets you straight, but it is hanging in the limbo of moderation.
I look forward to reading it SB, of course you haven’t seen my post yet 😉
Hey SB, you need to practice comprehension, I wrote:
“If they’re a mob then the commandos are murderers.”
ie I was using hyperbole (in response to Gavin).
“have a post which completely sets you straight,”
Well you might of if you actually comprehended what you read. You also wrote:
“Is this the entirety of your argument?
To which i responded:
my argument is that the blockade of Gaza is inhumane and amounts to the collective punishment of Palestinians in Gaza, of whom approximately 1 million are children.”
ie I set you straight, not vice versa, that is your claim about what my argument was false, you pulled it out of your arse! 🙂
“Turkish terrorists”
What were their names, how do you know they were terrorists? Were you there?
RobJ: “let us make up our own minds
It seems you already have.
Erdogan’s IHH Commandos. In many ways, this is about Turkey’s ambitions
Sorry guys, I was in remotest country Victoria trying to get people released onto the streets. (I succeeded.)
All posts approved now.
I’ve made up my mind, when the wing nuts shout ‘terrorist’ it’s because they’ve got nothing!
Ahhh I get it, some Israeli talking head called them terrorists so you just swallowed it as gospel, fortunately our govt isn’t as gullible as you:
http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/NationalSecurity.nsf/Page/What_Governments_are_doingListing_of_Terrorism_Organisations
IHH are not terrorists, just because Israel says they are doesn’t make it true, they say all sorts of things and gullible twats the world over believe them.
Admit it SB, in desperation to back up your flagrant use of the word ‘terrorist’ you just googled “IHH Terrorist” (or something similar), didn’t you. LOL
I see your other link is to the New York Post – LOL – you read some trash!
What is it with “libertarians” endlessly spouting rightwing showbag talking points?
What irks me most about these ongoing human rights violations by Israel, their never ending murders of innocent people, is not that Israel shows no scruples, you’d expect that like you would be able to predict the behaviour of crocodiles or yellow crazy ants if you had observed them for 40 years, but the fact that Australia just like the rest of the western world repeatedly pick absolute hypoocrites every time there is a national election.
If the Taliban would first bomb the crap out of a region in Afghanistan because the people there chose to elect a government that stands up to its brutal hordes, killing many many civilians in the process, then encircled and blockaded that region so as to nearly starving the inhabitants to death, and to top it up then invaded an aid convoy destined for the suffering people and shot 9 innocent passengers trying to repel the attackers, what would the Labor and Liberal party leaders have to say?
“Ahem, we of course condemn the violence and would ask the Taliban to please investigate this latest incident. Furthermore, we’d appreciate it if the Taliban would go easy on the blockade and desist from now on from killing the members of aid convoys. Now, about that proposed mining tax, we, the Blah Blah Party are absolutely committed to delivering the best possible outcome for the Australian people given the financial constraints we are dealing with…”
Although, shouldn’t be too hard on them, at least they are not excusing Israel’s behaviour like the rapid “anti anyone not looking and speaking like we do” crowd or even screaming for more like SB and his fellow Zionist thumb suckers and their media whores. Either you got balls or you got testicles, and I get the feeling Australia’s got testicles.
The amazing part is the sheer number of people you find in our allegedly civilized nation who are carrying on about how we just have to understand, put ourself in the pirates shoes, so we’d see how the ships passengers trying to fight of the invasion was not to be expected and hence they fast roped down one by one. Once the masked and armed pirates realised that they were not welcome and had to defend themselves against attempts by the ship’s passenger s to get them of their ship they had no other option but to kill a dozen or so people and wound many more. What’s there to whinge about, the passengers got what they asked for and the Land of the Pirates can maintain its iron grip on the bad lands, where the kids throw rocks at occupying pirates and the more daring lob home made flying objects into Pirateland. To all of you apologists, may I recommend you turn yourself over, you are done.
Juan, if you actually cared about the Gazans, you might agitate for the removal of the satanic savages, Hamas, who rule them.
Idiots calling for the end of the Gaza blockade are completely indifferent to whether or not Hamas get their hands on bigger rockets to kill Jews with. If the blockade is lifted, Israel will have no choice but to impose military rule on Gaza.
The stinking hypocrisy is that Israel is treated more harshly than even North Korea, who actually torpedoed a boat and haven’t yet been the subject of a security council resolution.
The reason Israel is loathed is that it is Jewish. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam that Jews are tolerated only if they assume dhimmi status. Western anti-semitism is no different.
“satanic savages,”
Setting people straight again with your hype?
“The stinking hypocrisy is that Israel is treated more harshly than even North Korea, ”
How much military aid does the US give to N Korea?
People are (rightly) condemning Israel’s actions but the US has put paid to any condemnation from the UNSC and the billions in aid and weapons continues to flow to Israel (even though they are continuing to turf Palestinian out of their homes for settlers).
“The reason Israel is loathed is that it is Jewish”
Here we go, it’s got fuck all to do with their appalling human rights abuses, it’s nothing to do with the FACT that they’re in breach of UNSC resolutions, nothing to do with the FACT that they recently killed 400 in Gaza in response to some pissy little rockets, nothing to do with the FACT that they bombed the shit out of Beirut killing hundreds more CIVILIANS a couple of years ago, nothing to do with the FACT that the use white phosphor in densely populated civilian areas, nothing to do with the fact that they deliberately target and bomb the UN, it’s because everybody is an anti-semite. Riiiight! There goes SB setting people straight – LOL
And to top it off you reckon they get a worse deal than N Korea, my word!
Stripey Dingo??? Ohhh, you made a cunning word association with my pseudonym… Well done, very funny.
How is my analogy wrong… You said that the Israelis weren’t attacking just by sliding down the ropes, I said you would say that the French weren’t attacking just by riding across the fields… Sounds about the same to me…
Ok, how’s this then… There is a soldier climbing a ladder up the side of your castle. Are you allowed to pour boiling oil onto him, or do you need to wait until he is on top of the battlements and is “attacking” you before you “defend” yourself?
Stating that the Israelis who were fast-roping from a helicopter, in the middle of the night, in international waters, weren’t attacking just because they didn’t have their boots on the deck is just naive.
The reason the middle east is insoluble is Islam. Either Israel will be terminated or it will destroy all vestiges of Islamic power in the region. Until then the region will continue as an open sore because the Palestinians and their fellow Islamic backers cannot bring themselves to accept the existence of a Jewish state.
This is just a continuation of the campaign to eliminate the state of Israel, which began when Israel was created in 1948.
Bloodthirsty leftists will continue to do everything they can to support the forces of Islam, and then wring their hands when either of the above scenarios plays out. You can’t agitate for a lifting of the Gaza blockade and then complain that you are not responsible when hi-tech rockets rain down on Tel Aviv.
RobJ, don’t waste your time debating Israel with right wing extremists.
“…if you actually cared about the Gazans, you might agitate for the removal of the satanic savages,…”
SB, are you implying that with your justification Israeli murder of Palestinians or pro-Palestinian activists you are demonstrating how much you care about the people living in Gaza?
“…Idiots calling for the end of the Gaza blockade are completely indifferent to whether or not Hamas get their hands on bigger rockets to kill Jews with. …”
Bullshit SB, in your mind someone who takes issue with the collective punishment of 1.5 million people must be a supporter of all militants within that population. Applying your logic, the moment the police has suspicion that there is a pack of gangster in Melbourne, with a couple of them having possibly killed a copper, it should lock down the entire city for 3 years and blockade all but the bare necessities from reaching its citizens. Your intellect is on par with Jürgen Stroop.
“…The stinking hypocrisy is that Israel is treated more harshly than even North Korea,… ”
How many embargos of NKorea are in force and supported by the Australian government, and how many of Israel. You talk rubbish the moment you lay your fingers on the keyboard.
“…The reason Israel is loathed is that it is Jewish….”
Yet another example of your limited capacity to understand why people think the way they do. Israel is loathed because it is illegally occupying foreign land, oppressive in its approach to the people living in the occupied lands, and murderous when it comes to enforcing its zionist dream. They could be christian, buddhist or flat earthers, they’d still be loathed. But for a buff head like you that is beyond grasp.
Hey, someone speaks out against the fact that Naziyahoo and his troops are killing indiscriminately multiple times the number of people Palestinians have killed – must be an anti-semite. Thats as far as your brain matter allows you to explore reality. Don’t worry though, you are not the only person suffering from this disability, I am sure there is a Zionist support group in your nearest city. Not that they would help you to eleviate your problems, but at least you’d feel comforted and at home.
Twist this as you may SB, facts speak for themselves,murder is murder and Clive Palmer is obese.
Juan, Israel tried playing nice and got out of Gaza in 2005. The Palestinians have not made any concessions to peace. Instead they elected a bunch of terrorists to power and launched thousands of rockets at Israel.
There have been countless opportunities for peace, but Islam will not permit the recognition of a Jewish state. There is nothing in the world Israel can do about that.
On cue, every measure Israel takes to defend itself ignites a horde of caterwauling leftists. In this case apparently, stabbed soldiers are not allowed to defend themselves.
Right SB, you got it all worked out, just make sure you won’t forget to comb your teeth and stop at green traffic lights, and should some mug assault you on your way home, remember your spineless body could be endangered as he will rightfully act in self defense should you try to hinder him, so just hand over all your possessions and count yourself lucky he didn’t kill you.
“Until then the region will continue as an open sore because the Palestinians and their fellow Islamic backers cannot bring themselves to accept the existence of a Jewish state.” – SB
At least the raving ranting isolation from reality provides some amusment.
This year, it is 8 years that the comprehensive peaceplan from Israels “satanic” neighbours has been on the table……Israel continues to treat it as a threat worse than war.
Juan, if I stab someone I expect that they will act in self-defense.
SB,
If you stab them while they are approaching you in full riot gear, holding a rifle, and they shoot CS filled paintballs at you*, who is acting in self defense?
*according to the IDF… Doesn’t actually fit with video footage, but we’ll go with it.
Thylacine, the soldiers weren’t ‘approaching in full riot gear’, they were mobbed, and bashed as they slid down the rope.
“…if I stab someone I expect that they will act in self-defense….”
How about if you lowered yourself down a rope onto somone else’s place in the dark of night, masked and armed looking like Darth Vader on ice, knowing that the people in that place might have a fair idea that you, a member of the war crime force which ruthlessly killed in excess of 1000 people in retaliation for rockets that have killed 10, will be coming to steal their goods and possibly harm them?
Would you expect that the people in that place you are abseiling into might choose to defend themselves? Or would you keep your ipod on full blast, with Sam Cooke’s Wonderful World giving you the background music for your welcome party?
How fast was the Palestinian tree travelling when it hit your car SB?
Four question marks, can you handle that? Oh no, now its five.
So if a boat trying to run a blockade is boarded, the passengers have a right to kill the boarding party. You haven’t got a clue have you?
Poor form SB, normally you try at least to cover your lies and spin with some half truth thrown in, but your reflex to defend Israel’s brutal actions everytime Pavlov rings the bell has made you respond too hasty, at least thats what I put it down to.
The passengers have killed no one, based on actual outcomes you should have written “have a right to struggle and injure the boarding party”. The killing was done by the Israeli goons, but don’t let facts get in the way when it comes to defending Israeli terrorists.
With a working brain you’d have written the sentence more like this:
“So, if a boat filled with humanitarian aid, which hasn’t sailed through the blockade yet, outside Israeli territorial waters and hence outside Israel’s jurisdiction, after the communications satellite was disabled, thereby jamming cell phones and preventing the besieged aid workers from calling for help, is boarded by thugish looking killers, the passengers have a right to struggle with and possibly injure the criminals trying to take over their ship.”
And yes, you’d be dead right, bloody oath do they have the right. In our world that is, where people stand up against fuckwit pirates coming down a rope one at a time, not in your world though, which I picture to be a splattered toilet big enough to house your bottom. No one would ever get the idea to rappel into that, unless of course you’d be floating in it towards Gaza with a few teddy bears on the lap.
Juan: ” I picture to be a splattered toilet big enough to house your bottom. “
Do stop fantasising!
“And yes, you’d be dead right, bloody oath do they have the right. In our world that is, where people stand up against fuckwit pirates”
Only if you disregard the relevant international law.
“You haven’t got a clue have you?”
Comedy gold 😀
SB, you’re the one just making it up as you go along because people aren’t responding how you’d like them to you just make things up. A few very recent example:
“satanic savages,”
Do Hamas worship satan? I haven’t got much time for anyone who believes in sky fairies however i don’t see the need to just make things up about those who do.
“Turkish terrorists”
In true wingut fashion, the have a different viewpoint, they must be terrorists!
“Israel is treated more harshly than even North Korea”
Complete and utter lie – or maybe you’re just stupid?
“The reason Israel is loathed is that it is Jewish.”
Another ignorant wingnut kneejerk.
And:
“I have a post which completely sets you straight,”
If by setting me straight you mean you’ve just made things up and completely humiliated yourself then sure, you set me straight!
RobJ “Do Hamas worship satan? “
They certainly act that way. Apparently they misunderstand Islam and think it requires them to be terrorist thugs.
You can do your own research on IHH and its terrorist activities. Seems they misunderstand Islam as well.
The fact is that North Korea hasn’t been dragged before the UNSC, and doesn’t come in for nearly the same amount of attention from the GA or HRC.
“only if you disregard the relevant international law.”
It’s not cut-and-dried. I admit I also had thought it was (just in the opposite direction to you).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla#Legal_observations_and_opinions
“They certainly act that way”
Maybe you’re an expert on Satan worship, do Satanists point to the east and pray five times a day?
“You can do your own research on IHH and its terrorist activities. ”
I provided you the Australian Govts list of terrorist organisations, that is by far a more credible link that yours, especially a link from the New York Post.m I suppose if Israel claims a group are terrorists then you just agree by default, maybe you ought to go and live there since your govt isn’t prepared to agree.
[The fact is that North Korea hasn’t been dragged before the UNSC, and doesn’t come in for nearly the same amount of attention from the GA or HRC.]
Regardless they don’t get billions in aid, there’s just no comparison, and as far as UNSC resolutions go, Israel just ignores them, the US supports Israel but has invaded other nations and killed hundreds of thousands for being in breach of USNC resolutions.
Anyway keep it coming, when you constantly just make shit up you make your posts so easy to rebutt… thanks 😉
Self-defense not only includes defending yourself from attack after you’ve invaded a ship at 4.30am, armed, without any legal authority. It also now extends to shooting someone in the head 4 times:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/03/american-reportedly-killed-gaza-flotilla-raid/ (It was on FoxNews so you know it is true.)
Oh dear. How will the right wing ideologues spin this one?
What is it with right wong trolls who pretend to be in favour of free speech but then try and shut down all criticism of Israel by calling critics of Israel Jew-haters?
“It also now extends to shooting someone in the head 4 times:”
And one in the chest.
“critics of Israel Jew-haters?”
And peace activists “TERRORISTS!”
RobJ, it seems to me that Hamas channel Satan in their actions. Apart from oppressing their own people, they generally kill Jews on sight. When Jews try to defend themselves the leftist clown chorus kicks in.
Buns, what is there to explain? Be patient and wait for the facts to emerge – there may be a problem with this, but it is to early for sensible people to reach a concluded view. Dung-brained lunatics on the other hand are already screeching their silly little lungs inside out.
“Be patient and wait for the facts to emerge”
You’ve spent much of this thread telling us how it was. Maybe you should take your own advice.
“RobJ, it seems to me that Hamas channel Satan in their actions.”
Personally I don’t believe that there is an entity called Satan.
Oh, OK, I get it Hamas are bastards (everyone agrees) therefore Israel should be absolved of their human rights abuses. Riiiiiight. At least your spinning isn’t as bad as when you just make things up.
“When Jews try to defend themselves the leftist clown chorus kicks in.”
Absolutely…..when that so-called defence is disproportionate and also results in the collective punishment of a million children who never voted for Hamas. I’m not ashamed of my compassion and empathy for other human beings, unfortunately you seem to be devoid of passion for the million kids in the Gaza strip – bully for you!
“Be patient and wait for the facts to emerge – there may be a problem with this, but it is to early for sensible people to reach a concluded view. Dung-brained lunatics on the other hand are already screeching their silly little lungs inside out.
Do you read your own posts (SB on Jun 2):
“If you actually want to know why people were killed, it comes down to the fact that the ‘peace activists’ tried to kill the soldiers, who then defended themselves”
So, you’re a dung brained lunatic, screeching your silly little lungs inside out. LOL
errrr passion should be ‘compassion’
On this thread I have spent my time criticising those who have rushed to judgment, pointing out the inherent implausibility of their claims, based on the facts as we know them.
“On this thread I have spent my time criticising those who have rushed to judgment, pointing out the inherent implausibility of their claims, based on the facts as we know them.”
You’ve criticised others for rushing to judgment about the facts, yes. But you’ve also made your own claims as to the facts, most of which are still contentious. Your posts are there for us all to read, you know?
The fact that soldiers were bashed and stabbed as soon as they arrived on the ship is not contentious. Taken with the relevant international law it suggests that the tsunami of criticism directed at Israel is based on something other than reason or logic.
Yes, far easier to accept a vast international anti-Israel conspiracy and the notion that large majorities of people and governments throughout the Western world are anti-semites than to countenance the possibility that Israel did something wrong.
You are open to the idea that 4 gunshots to head of one man on the ship can be rationalised with something other than wrongdoing on the part of the commandos, so you’re probably not in a position to be giving lectures about reason and logic.
Buns, you are open to the idea that 4 gunshots to head of one man on the ship can’t be rationalised with something other than wrongdoing on the part of the commandos, so you’re probably not in a position to be giving lectures about reason and logic.
What are some plausible theories as to how a man received 4 gunshot wounds to the head and one to the chest, all inflicted by Israelis engaging in self-defense?
I am with SB on this one, the man was trying to kill one of the peaceful Israeli terror commandos, and when he realised his mistake he shot himself in shame, four times. And then one in the chest, just to make sure he doesn’t have to live with this stain on his family name. The Israeli terrorists tried to stop him from committing suizide but didn’t get to him in time. Tragic.
SB applies straight forward logic, something we, the people who dare criticising Israel, are just too bend to understand. Like, when some woman tells SB that she works for Telstra and SB then saying, “Hey, you must know Ken, he also works for Telstra.” Counting one and one together, makes sense. How can you argue with that?
And like SB, I too now believe “Thank Yahweh the Israelis got to the flotilla on time”, coz the damage the medication and cement on board would have caused to Israel’s citizens is immeasurably big.
Or the one in the chest was legitimate self-defense and killed him, while the others to the head were freak ricochets as he lay dead on the deck. That’s another possible explanation which is totally full of both reason and logic.
Whenever you’re ready, SB, please provide us with some possible scenarios whereby 4 bullets to the head and one to the chest were delivered in self-defense. I can’t think of one such scenario, but you obviously can, judging by your last comment.
“I can’t think of one such scenario”
In that case you are too stupid for words. Nothing I can possibly say will mean anything to you.
Its not that we are stupid SB, just curious. Instead of trying to wiggle out of this, explain where the four bullet wounds to the head stem from! In case you can’t or won’t, I assume you’ll be fine with me calling Israeli troops terrorists.
You can’t think of one either, though, SB. You’re just too cowardly and full of yourself to admit it.
I think the video SB posted is something of an insight into the say SB “thinks”. Those people are just fucking crazy racist ass holes.
They actually mock the idea that there is hunger and a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. As though hungry Gazan children is just a figment of our imagination or something. Weird…
In close quarters combat it is highly likely that you will unload into the guy standing over you with a knife, even more bullets will be fired if there are two soldiers being threatened at close quarters. Take a walk through any battlefield and see how many of the dead have more than one bullet in them. Or just look at the videos of the ‘peace activists stabbing people – close quarters combat where it is obvious that anyone trying to stop them would unload a few rounds into them.
Of course you stooges can’t think beyond wicked Israelis gunning down Mother Theresa.
The spin from SB continues.
See here for pics of peace activists who sure deserve four in the head.
I wonder in just how many murder cases, where the victim was shot 4 times in the head and one in the chest, the killer got away with claiming self defense?
On news radio this morning they interviewed an Australian who got shot twice in the leg by Israeli terrorists. He said he noticed the red laser point on him seconds before he got shot. Close combat hey SB? He was shot from a distance, unarmed.
So from now on, on planet SB anyway, should someone try to repel an intruder at 4:30 am with a stick, the intruder has the right, in self defense of course, to shoot the person 4 times in the head and once in the chest.
“Sorry judge, got a bit excited there, being attacked and all.”
“I understand son, the other day when my neighbor’s kid with his slingshot had a go at me I quickly shot him multiple times too, and then slit his throat. Guards, uncuff the man and let him go, he’s as innocent as Mother Theresa.”
You are a joke SB.
Doing burnouts now.
Juan: “should someone try to repel an intruder at 4:30 am with a stick”
Of course your saw the picture I linked to, the one with the ‘peace activists’ wielding knives, but choose to refer to ‘wielding sticks’. You are a fantasist.
LGF SB? Oh dear.
As for the photo – what os that, asmall kitchen knife?? Taking on military special forces with a kitchen knife! Brave, but foolhardy.
But, ignoring SBs pathetic apologetics for the murder of unarmed civilians by the military foreces of a nation state in international waters (can anyone think of a recent parallel – I can’t), it seems that the efforts to save Gazan’s from the siege have recieved a great boost from this action -precisely what it was meant to do – though at a terrible cost to those who are trying to come ot the iad of Palestinians.
Israel’s progress to becoming the new South Africa continues.
Nawagadj, the pictures were from Reuters. Of course the mere mention of ‘LGF’ means that they are lies in your ad hominem world.
Why do you think it is reasonable to knife Jews, and unreasonable for them to defend themselves?
If you actually cared about the Gazans, you might spend a bit of your energy agitating against the Hamas thugs that have seized power there and oppress their own people. Without them, there would be no need to restrict imports.
“LGF SB? Oh dear.”
LOL – He’s renowned for citing shit sources, just the other day he linked to the New York Post to back up his naive, unquestioning belief of the Israeli authorities.
Hamas are thugs SB, thing is they didn’t ‘seize power’ they won a free and fair election. That Fatah were in the pockets of Israel and the US and the conditions on the ground caused by Israel made it easy for Hamas, ie they can thank Israel for their victory.
Oh and by the way, when Hamas did win the FREE & FAIR ELECTION the US and Israel spat the dummy, armed Fatah and sent them after Hamas, unfortunately for Fatah they got their arses kicked. The US only respects democracy when they feel like it.
Now you wont learn this from the Herald Sun, LGF or the New York Post, they write stuff for idiots and the idiots swallow their bullshit, they like their idiot readers to be misinformed, they realise that they’re too stupid to check further.
Pictures from Reuters, interpretation courtesy of LGF. Which you lap up.
“Knifing Jews” – you do hysterically illogical so well. Natural talent one presumes.
Try ‘taking on commandos with a small kitchen knife’ as an alternative. The IDF soldier could have been an Arab-Israeli. Sorry to burst your bubble.
“Siezed power” – you mean, won an open democratic election fair and square, but was actively undermined from the get-go by anti-democratic forces, ie Israel?
And to correct you myopia further – restriction on Gaza commennced back in the early 90’s. You may notice that this date preceeds Hamas’s election victory.
Fact of the matter is nawgadj, it suits Israel to have pricks like Hamas in power.
If the Israeli government really wanted peace they would cease all settlement building and commence removing all illegal settlements (not Israeli’s – or ‘Jews’ as SB would call them, I have no doubt that your average Israeli wants peace, politicians are another breed though)
If Israel didn’t constantly have its foot on the neck of the Palestinians then maybe they’d be more reluctant to elect pricks like Hamas, Fatah are no good though, they’re too corrupt.
Anyway, any sane person realises that this will NEVER be resolved as long as both sides refuse to talk. I’m picking that most people are sane but just because they’re sane it doesn’t mean they have honest motives.
Israel’s progress to becoming the new South Africa continues.
LOL. One thing’s for sure, the IDF is rivalling Dad’s Army for sheer idiocy and blunders. No other democratic nation’s armed forces so consistently turn what should be routine operations into outright clusterfucks where people are unecessarily killed or injured.
If you want a professional military operation, don’t call the IDF. However if you want to kill women, children and unarmed civillians while earning international rebuke at the same time, the IDF are your guys!
RobJ, Hamas were elected. It says a lot about the people who elected him. Hitler was also elected. But the fact is that they then proceeded to kill their opposition and run the place as a thugocracy. Fatah is hardly in the pocket of Israel, although they are a (slightly) less rotten organisation.
No doubt, nawagadj, you think being knifed is a trivial matter.
Israel is fighting the same struggle it has been fighting since its creation in 1948, the struggle to exist. Its enemies have been trying to exterminate it ever since. This is the same struggle. It will not be settled because its enemies cannot tolerate the existence of a Jewish state.
If you want to see bestial behaviour, just have a look at the Hamas track record,5 children shot in front of their pregnant mother before she is also killed, walk into a pizza shop, or disco or wedding and blast away, or maybe a seminary. The Israelis are pussycats by comparison, and widely reviled for resisting their own murder and destruction, especially by those aching to see another 6 million dead Jews.
The fact is that there has never been a Palestinian state, and there is no prospect of one existing now. Possibly two, Hamastan and the Fatah Fiefdom, but more likely they will end up as failed states dominated by Iran.
The Palestinians have had ample opportunity for a state. If they had followed Israel’s lead and taken what was on offer by the UN they would have a state much larger than they will ever get now. If the world unfairly discriminates against Israel, it will have to ensure its survival by increasingly drastic measures.
“. It says a lot about the people who elected him. ” Like I said it actually says a lot about the conditions on the ground and says more about the Israeli govt, I realise this is too nuanced for you to get your tiny mind around it, unfortunately you’ll need to wait until the likes of the New York Post break it down into tiny slogans for you.
“struggle to exist.”
“Struggle to exist” Riiight, more stupid fucking hype, the Palestinians are dying at a ratio of 100:1 the Israelis’ on the other hand enjoy a first world lifestyle courtesy of the US tax payer (and other donors). There’s struggling in the region alright, it’s just that you have it arse backwards as per usual.
The Israelis enjoy the benefits of being civilised hence their first world lives and their disproportionate contribution to science and culture. Unfortunately their neighbours are retarded by the barbarism of the Islamist ideas so dominant in their society.
Civilised is a matter of opinion.
And I guess I’ve been exposed to information that makes me struggle to see this.
Stuff like the the IDF t-shirts: pictures of a snipers sight superimposed over a childs silhouette with the caption ‘the smaller the harder’, or a pregant woman ‘1 shot, 2 kills’. The funny little game IDF soldiers at check points were playing a year or two back – choking Palestinian children with their bare hands to see how long it would take them to pass out. The Shin Bet and the nasty little ‘Stasi-land’ it’s been running in the OPTs – including trying to recruit child collaboraters (as young as 12) by threatening to kill family members if they didn’t co-operate.
This is a common talking point from the blindly pro-Israel, but it’s amazing how often they are ignorant of the details of the fabled Israeli civilisation.
SB repeat after me: Not all Palestinians are islamic fundies.
“Its enemies have been trying to exterminate it ever since. This is the same struggle.”
Uh-huh. Can you please outline for us the sum total of the results of these enemies’ efforts to exterminate Israel? How are they going? Would you describe Israel’s extermination as imminent?
“The Israelis enjoy the benefits of being civilised hence their first world lives and their disproportionate contribution to science and culture. Unfortunately their neighbours are retarded by the barbarism of the Islamist ideas so dominant in their society.”
Are you sure you’re a libertarian? Because this sounds like you ripped it straight out of Right Wing Talking Points For Dummies.
Also, see nawagadj’s post, to which I’d add (among other things) use of phosphorous bombs in populated areas. I guess not such a biggy seeing as the victims were Jew-hating savages. What are their lives worth, right?
Nawagadj, the issue of a few rogue T-shirts is a little different to say, the Palestinian kids TV shows encouraging their children to become suicide bombers, their hateful school textbooks or their racist violent preachers teaching Jew hatred from their mosques like this, from last year:
There is no doubt that the Israelis have had their madmen, like Baruch Goldstein, but the difference is that they are kept in their box by a saner government. On the Palestinian side, the terrorists run the show.
Confessions, I’m sure not all Palestinians are fundies. But I haven’t noticed any moderate Palestinian groups reaching out for peace in the same way as the Israeli peace activists do. It was the Gazans themselves who first gave Hamas a taste of power.
Buns: ” Would you describe Israel’s extermination as imminent?”
At the moment this not so much a Palestinian issue. Extermination is more likely to come from Iran, or its Hizballah proxies, or even from Turkey.
There is a deal to be done. It will require compromise on both sides, but what it requires more than anything else is an acknowledgement of Israel’s right to exist. So far the Palestinians and their allies have not been able to get over that issue.
Oh SB! Florid hyperbole as usual, but no substance. When will you learn?
There are no moderate activists on either side. The Palestinians elect a theo-con militaristic government because they think that’s the road to the end of oppression, and the Israelis do the same, presumably to feel safe from what they perceive are threats to their State.
The same thing happens with us: voters rally around GWB after Sept 11, even though he’s the most lazy, most incompetent POTUS in living memory, and Australians flock to Howard out of fear of a few asylum seekers. Fearful electorates deliver extremist governments who more often than not, use their powers for bad.
“Extermination” of Israel isn’t realistically threatened from anywhere, except in the wet dreams of dung-brained right wing ideologues who crave endless war in the Middle East and are happy to make shit up to justify it.
Turkey is a threat to Israel? Seriously, what are you smoking?
Confessions, in fact Bush and Howard are centre-right. They are not extremists in the same way that say, Hamas is. That is they do not advocate the murder of civilians, fire rockets indiscriminately or impose sharia law (which is per se a set of crimes against humanity) on their people.
It was the dung-brined Ahmedinijad who threatened to wipe Israel from the map, and the dung-brained Imam quoted above, and there many many more examples of that sort of theological dung. It is the Hamas charter that calls for the obliteration of Israel and the killing of Jews.
They are not extremists in the same way that say, Hamas is.
Of course not, and I didn’t say they were. It’s all relative: Bush and Howard gave their respective nations draconian laws as a result of trying to appease a fearful electorate. Bush even led his country into becoming a torture nation. If you want to hold the high moral ground over despicable theocon regimes, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard.
Bush and Howard held themselves to a much higher standard than Hamas. Perhaps not to a high enough standing for our liking, but higher than Hamas by many orders of magnitude.
Bush and Howard held themselves to a much higher standard than Hamas. Perhaps not to a high enough standing for our liking, but higher than Hamas by many orders of magnitude.
Lets have a look at the magnitude then.
Over the last ten years, how many civilians have died due to
a, Hamas launching violent attacks on another nation? Whats your guess?
b, Bush & Howard launching violent attacks on another nation?
I’d say its somewhere between a couple of hundred versus north of a hundred thousand. The ones killing hundreds are branded terrorists; the ones killing many thousands get a library build in their honour.
And the public swallows this shit. Better not be navel gazing too much, we are the righteous people after all, the poor souls we kill in countries far away die a peaceful death knowing it was for the greater good. The magnitude, gotta love it.
Juan, although your logic is impeccable (at least by the lights of some on the left) you seem to have missed the major argument of your kind – that the middle east is the main source of conflict in our world, and the Jews are responsible for all of the violence in it.
Bush and Howard held themselves to a much higher standard than Hamas.
Of course *they* did. But they both sold out the democratic principles of justice and freedom by trying to allay the fears of the wider electorate, amazingly by reverting to draconian laws that encroach on freedom and deny justice. That’s cowardice and weakness in my view. And no better than either the Palestinian or Israeli regimes.
That sort of moral equivalence is an abdication of your duty to think and make rational judgments.
That sort of moral equivalence is an abdication of your duty to think and make rational judgments.
No SB, it is people laughing at the idea of there being a duty to think like SB, or Mark Regev. Going by the sheer number of people killed on orders of Howard, Bush & Blair, those three win hands down first prize in the category “Past Decade’s Greatest Men of Terror”. Themselves terrorists, the many sickening stories that have emerged over the last years clearly demonstrating their willingness to suspend human rights in the pursuit of dominance, to torture or kill civilians whenever it suits, hell hounds not unlike the freaks they claim to be fighting, the difference to OBL being that he might be responsible for 4000 or 5000 dead innocent civilians, Howard, Blair & Bush easy for 20 times that. Rational judgement means as much comparing the numbers of dead civilians as it is the reasons for why they are dead.
If one side deliberately attacks civilians and kills 10, and the other side claiming not to aim at civilians but still kills 100 of them in a reply attack, then it isn’t rational to cry about the 10 and justify the hundred, but to recognise the double standard and condemn both sides, with the proportionality of response on the side that killed ten times more having to seriously be questioned. Mind you, I recognise your permablinkers and therefore don’t expect you to understand that there simply is no reason honourable enough to lend itself as excuse for killing as many innocent people as Israel does.
“middle east is the main source of conflict in our world, and the Jews are responsible for all of the violence in it.”
SB, do me a favour and find a comment of mine in which I have mentioned the word Jew (apart from this one). Until then, park your prejudices up that narrow-minded splatterbottom of yours.
Is the Middle East the main source of conflict in our world as your limited imagination leads you to believe I must think? I don’t think so. Is it a festering boil, an example for western hypocrisy? Yes, but hardly the main source of conflict in the world. Violent conflicts are generally a result of interest groups speculating an armed conflict would be advantageous to their goals and then engineering an environment and trigger situation to start it all up, the conflict in Palestine being no difference.
In simple terms, I would describe the Middle East as the stretch of land chosen some 70 years ago to bear the after pains of a world war, a war not instigated by Palestinians. And yet, it was them who had to sacrifice their lands and consequently lives to make room for a group of people who were fortunate enough to have survived the European holocaust and all other people with their religion. The reaction of the suddenly and unreasonably dispossessed people in Palestine was about as predictable as that of Tasmanians would have been should their lands have been picked to make room for a new state called Israel.
Israel’s nationhood was never able to shake off the legacy its murderous beginnings have given rise to. For a range of reasons it has developed into an apartheid state of the crassest proportions, continuously stealing land and building illegal settlement. Its armed forces willing to kill anyone daring to oppose its inhumane practices, knowing that it has a fleet of apologists handy who are trained in throwing red herrings, such as their standard ploy, to quickly point the finger at them, them disobedient Muslims, and how they are the real baddies here. They may kill only a fraction of civilians of what we do, but they are still the baddies, always.
Juan “The reaction of the suddenly and unreasonably dispossessed people in Palestine was about as predictable as that of Tasmanians would have been should their lands have been picked to make room for a new state called Israel.”
Except that Tasmanians would have still have had citizenship to Australia and the rights that affords whilst Palestinians were generally forced into refugee camps with refugee status without citizen ship rights.
And the concept that the people of Gaza, at least half of which are under 15 are to blame because “they” didn’t accept the UN ruling is quite absurd, as though they were even alive to be apart of that unjust decision making process.
I think RobJ hit it on the head with SB not being able to understand nuance of this.
Also SB’s subscription to the Jerusalem Post is quite obvious in his screeching parroting of everybody being out to get the Jews and the bringing in of the Holocaust in an attempt to justify Israels actions and cling dearly to that victim status.
Ironic that SB likes to criticize “teh left” for our supposed false identification of victimization.