A follow-up to news of Alice Spring Town Council’s descent into barbarism and inhumanity, via Dinana:
Just went to the Alice Springs Town Council meeting. Proposed bylaws passed and up for public discussion for 28 days. Basically almost all the aldermen and women (with one notable exception – she is a Greens member) were primarily concerned with law and order. At this meeting, councillors gave themselves and each other lots of pats on the back for Finally Doing Something about law and order…
Not much said (except by the one notable exception) on the draconian and harsh aspects of these proposed bylaws.
So it’s not just Craig Catchlove. It’s also, apparently, Damien Ryan, John Rawnsley, Brendan Heenan, Murray Stewart, Samih Habib, Liz Martin, Sandy Taylor, and Melanie van Haaren.
It appears that Jane Clark is the only actual human being serving on that council. Please feel free to email the others to let them know just what you think of the abominable proposal that passed the next stage before their little band tonight and of any person who would possess the lack of compassion and sheer, unbridled bastardry to have actually voted for it to proceed. (Pease make sure that you title your letter as an official response to the proposed Public Places By-Laws and request a receipt from Council).
I’ve emailed them the following:
As a concerned citizen I must express my absolute horror at the news that tonight you apparently voted for and passed a bylaw to fine people for begging. To punish – with, ironically, a demand for more money – the poorest and most desperate in our community.
Please check your calendar and have a look out the window. It’s 2009 in Australia, not Dickensian London. All you’ll have achieved is to make the lot of the most vulnerable people in the community even tougher, make them easy prey for real villains (who’ll have a whole new class of victims to pick on who are forced to avoid authority figures), and give them the fine choice of starvation or crime. Bravo.
I understand that there is still time to rescind this embarrassingly awful bylaw. I urge you to do so.
And I urge you to express similar sentiments. Who knows, with a few gentle reminders some of them might even remember their humanity.
NOTE: To be clear: the bylaws passed through to the public consultation stage (28 days for responses from the community); they haven’t yet been enacted. Which means there’s still time.
UPDATE: Note that it’s not just Alice Springs Town Council that favours such monstrous ill-treatment of the poor. Begging is an offence in other States as well.
UPDATE #2: The audio recording is here.
Moved On 
Jeremy
Your compassion for the down trodden is admirable but just how is any jurisdiction to deal with those people who are repeatedly making public nuisances of themselves?
Because that is the real issue here, not just the point you make about the inability of beggars to pay any fines.
Perhaps a better response (rather than the fines they could not pay ) would be to take them outside the town limits every time they are caught begging and if they are caught doing it again take them further down the road so that each time they are caught they have a longer walk back to where they can harass people.
Or do you have an objection to that idea as well?
Yes, yes I do have a problem with that.
If a person’s desperate pleas for assistance are a “nuisance”, then take them to a shelter and make sure they’re fed. But the council isn’t interested in treating them humanely: it just wants to sweep them – these human beings – under the carpet, out of sight.
Ironically, at least one of the council members calls herself a “christian”. I suggest she reads again what Jesus was quoted in the gospels to have said about how personally he took what people do to the poor.
and confiscate blankets http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/28/2638406.htm?section=justin
Unbelievable. I’ll do an update.
Jeremy
You really don’t understand the first thing about poverty or life at the bottom of society at all now do you?
People beg not because they are in some transient crisis situation, they may not be in any sort of crisis at all it is a way to get what want. They may do this because they have addled their brains with drugs or the grog,they may do it because they are mentally ill but what ever the reason for their behaviour you do them no favours by always favouring the “carrot” over the “stick”. By all means lets be charitable to those individuals who are societies fuck ups but that does not mean that we have to give beggars licence to harass and annoy people.
Just remember that many of these individuals can not be reformed or rescued from their lifestyle, so if you can’t “save them” what is to be done other than trying to change their behaviour so they are less of a blight upon the lives of the other people in the community?
Here is a challenge for you Jeremy: why don’t you go and spend some time volunteering with the Salvo’s or the brotherhood of St Lawrence working with the homeless then perhaps you might get a clue, sadly I don’t think you have one at the moment.
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“You really don’t understand the first thing about poverty or life at the bottom of society at all now do you?”
You patronising idiot, Iain. I work with the people at the very bottom of society all the time. I’ve spent hours trying to find someone even so much as a bed for the night – which is much tougher than you’d think if you believed we actually have a functioning safety net. I’ve struggled to get mental health support services to squeeze clients in.
No government body or authority should DARE consider punishing beggars before they’ve made sure that they all have genuine alternatives – that there is food, that there is shelter. To simply assert, as you do, a whole lot of ways that the person’s begging “might” be a result of recent poor decisions and that they therefore deserve no sympathy, is both wrong and missing the point.
There should be no-one to whom we say “sorry, you’ve gotta starve, we don’t care”. No matter what they’ve done. We feed murderers. We can bloody well feed and shelter the drug addicts, the gamblers, the alcoholics, the mentally ill. Because they are human beings. And it is not the dark ages, and we are not a third world country.
The Alice Springs Town Council members haven’t gone out and spoken to the beggars to find out why they’re begging. They haven’t bothered making sure that these people can be “moved on” to somewhere where they can get a meal, or shelter. They would much rather sweep the problem under the carpet and congratulate themselves on having made the problem go somewhere else. They don’t care if people die as a result. They don’t care if people are bashed and abused because now they’re scared of authorities.
Instead, moving the problem on hides their utter failures as governments and councils.
It’s interesting that people justifying laws that criminalise begging always seem to justify those laws by reference to another form of behaviour entirely, one that is an offence already: harassment. At the level of their examples, it’s already an offence: unlawful assault. Putting someone in fear through intimidation is an assault even if you don’t touch them.
By all means, charge those people – although, given that many of them are the mentally-ill for whom we no longer have appropriate facilities, indict the community for how poorly we’ve cared for them, too – but you don’t need to criminalise begging itself.
It’s inhuman. Have you seen the next post? Apparently the council is also going to TAKE BLANKETS FROM THE HOMELESS. What on earth is wrong with these people?
By all means lets be charitable to those individuals who are societies fuck ups
I think Jeremy is. He let’s you comment here, doesn’t he?
Iain Hall, do you work with any Homeless agency ?
Agree with you entirely Jeremy, although i also find it more than a little disturbing that the majority of the people living in Alice Springs appear to support this legislation.
I’m making this assumption based on the fact that it appears to have passed the community consultation stage — if this is indeed the case, what does it say about the whole Alice Springs community ?
“if this is indeed the case, what does it say about the whole Alice Springs community”
Maybe its easy as an outsider to make judgement without having to live with the consequenses of daily life there. After living there for 8 months, I can see their point. It is not a nice place and something needed to be done. I urge those criticising to understand just how bad things are there for ALL locals.
I know Alice well cemil. “Something needs to be done”. Well, yes indeed, how about just shooting them all? That’d fix it eh? Then we’d just get whats left of their families to bury ’em all eh? Just like we did in the old days. Forget by-laws, it’s the law of the jungle in the good ‘ole ‘stralia…if they can’t get a job they’re losers anyway eh? who’d miss em..?
Jeremy
When you ‘work with” these people in your professional capacity I very much doubt that it gives you any insight into why they are where they are in their lives, why they make the choices they do or why many of them are irredeemable I am not trying to patronise you here I am making a serious suggestion that you do some primary research. perhaps the you will understand that no matter what safety net there may be that there are always going to be people who find a way to wriggle through to the bottom.
This is a stupid argument from a Lawyer, I think that we can be pretty sure that it is not food that they are begging for, or even shelter, rather it is for money to buy grog, tobacco or drugs these sorts of efforts are modifying social behaviour that the majority of people find offensive and annoying: how would you feel about someone using the door to your office as a urinal? or to have your every visit to shops to require the running of a gauntlet of people imploring you to give them money or cigarettes? It does not take long for compassion fatigue to set in, but from your ivory tower it is all too easy to denounce anyone who says enough of this!
Well how many will you put up at your place then? I bet that you can fit half a dozen in your flat easily and you must be happy that you could feed them and play computer games with them as well (at least until you find your console has been stolen you could…) The point is that no matter how much compassion you have in your heart you have to let you head explain the truth that not all (or even most) of these people can be “rehabilitated” and if you can rehabilitate them what do you do?
Its not about “sweeping the problem under the carpet” Jeremy its about modifying the behaviour of people who are acting in an anti-social way in the most effective and least punitive manner possible. If these people die it is because of the way they have chosen to live their lives.
But the welfare of the poor is not the responsibility of town councils , who have an entirely different role . More importantly you seem to have the notion that the nanny state can save every fuck up and every loser out there, when clearly that is an impossible ask for the government of any flavour.
How about you take the horse hair of your head for a moment and consider the more generic meaning of “to harass” which is to bother or annoy? It is not about fear being invoked by these beggars it is the ongoing interference in the lives of others that matters.
Did you actually read the article liked too? because I did and it did not say that a single homeless person is going to be bailed up and have their blankets taken from then. What it did say was that if rangers found blankets that have been left somewhere during the day that they could destroy them rather than hand them over to an indigenous organisation. You are rather gilding the lily here by implying that the rangers will be ripping the blankets from the sleeping bodies of the homeless. The solution for the homeless is simple, if you want to keep your blankets don’t leave them lying around.
Jeez, I don’t know Iain. But since you’re widely regarded as repeatedly making a nuisance of yourself on the internet, perhaps you could tell us what we could do to stop you?
Iain, I actually work with these people and meet them on a regular basis. And I get very involved in their lives. I do not believe you do. I strongly suspect that your declarations about what beggars are doing with all the vast sums of money they make begging (yeah, right) are based on nothing more than hearsay and wishful thinking. Yes, wishful thinking – because you have managed to convince yourself that the more morally reprehensible the beggar, the more you can justify not giving a crap if they live or die.
Society CAN and SHOULD make sure that there is shelter and food available for those who need it. It won’t break the bank. We can afford it. It is the humane thing to do. Food and shelter are basic human rights, no matter what poor decisions the person in question has made, or even continues to make.
Until the Alice Springs Town Council can say that every beggar has a genuine alternative – that on any given day, any one of them has a place to which they can be taken for food and shelter – then they have precisely NO basis for punishing them. To do so is shirking their responsibilities.
Hello Cemil,
You do make a good point about outsiders looking in — and I do know that many of those begging in Alice Springs are indeed not homeless or starving, but instead are aboriginals wanting money for alcohol, the problem with this legislation however, seems to be that those who are genuinely in need will be penalised along with those who aren’t…I think the council needs to consider a different solution.
Jeremy
You may deal with the down and outs in Melbourne (presumably in some sort of legal aid capacity) but as others have pointed out the problem in Alice Springs is different, heck even Gavin M can see there is a difference and that it is NOT just about them wanting food or shelter. After all we are talking about central Australia where the climate is generally somewhat warmer than where you live in Melbourne even in the winter.
I have never claimed that those begging are making vast sums of money, nor am I trying to suggest that they are “morally reprehensible” either. I am just say that you are kidding yourself if you think that they can be ‘saved” unless they decide to save themselves .
How about you hop on a plane and spend a few days in the Alice among the underclass there rather than continuing to pretend that they are exactly the same as some of your legal aid clients in Melbourne?
People could also simply choose not to give to beggars. It’s hardly an efficient use of resources to legislate on something like this.
“After all we are talking about central Australia where the climate is generally somewhat warmer than where you live in Melbourne even in the winter.”
Um, not at night it isn’t. Did you read the ABC story about the blankets? “The temperature often drops down to about zero degrees Celsius on winter nights”. That’s plenty cold enough for shelter to be required.
“I am just say that you are kidding yourself if you think that they can be ’saved” unless they decide to save themselves .”
But this is my point. It doesn’t matter what they decide on any given night, because the shelter and food ARE NOT AVAILABLE.
The council should be making sure they are before it even thinks about punishing those who it suggests “choose” to beg.
I note that after all your snide remarks about my contact with the poor you’re yet to illuminate us with the basis of your special insight.
“Here is a challenge for you Jeremy: why don’t you go and spend some time volunteering with the Salvo’s or the brotherhood of St Lawrence working with the homeless then perhaps you might get a clue, sadly I don’t think you have one at the moment.”
Here’s a few facts, Iain. In Melbourne – which is by no means un-representative of the rest of the western world – there is one, I repeat ONE organisation that deals primarily with elderly institutionalised male alcoholics who do not have a current address. One.
The vast majority of the people who live on the streets and who beg fall into exactly that category. We deliberately set up welfare systems to disenfranchise these people, because we see them as least worthy.
Charity is not supposed to look at merit. It is supposed to look at need. Last time I looked, it wasn’t “Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses – and I will line them up and judge them according to their merit, disenfranchise them and then criminalise keeping themselves alive”
If you seek to ascribe your own moral compass to the charity you hand out, it ceases to be charity.
And before you get on your meaningless high-horse, Iain, I’ve volunteered with plenty of agencies that deal with the homeless, the elderly and the poor. Not to mention the mentally ill and mentally handicapped.
Care to throw your hat in the ring and tell us what you’ve done? Because whilst you’re up there on your white charger telling Jeremy that his dealings with the relevant agencies and the people themselves who deal with these laws is meaningless, you’ve yet to tell us what YOUR qualifications are in this arena.
Jeremy
Yes I know that, but light a fire and you will be fine, the indigenous people have lived there for a very long tome before whitefella shelter as invented Jeremy and what makes you think the Alice Springs beggars of today can’t afford matches to light a fire? Or that their needs are food and shelter?
As I said before the welfare function that you want them to preform is not one of their responsibilities: local councils take care of roads, rubbish and development issues, public libraries and the like, welfare is the responsibility of the state or territory and federal governments.
Jeremy I have spent many years doing volunteer work in the community and I have known enough fuck ups junkies and hopeless cases to understand that you just can’t save many of them, my family and i have taken in “strays” on occasion only to have them steal from us, I have listened to the most elaborate sob stories told with great conviction only to later discover that it was all bullshit. What it boils down to is the necessity to take so much that is told to you by the “people of the streets” with a rather large” pinch of salt” but beyond that I have personally been in the situation of not knowing where the next meal is coming form or how the bills will be met. Have you?
Keri
I find that rather hard to believe Keri because even here in Brisbane there is more than one group out there helping the needy. and several philanthropic individuals who help feed the hungry.
So if they are alcoholics and you are concerned with them getting a meal which is a better option , give them a feed or give them money (which they will use to buy grog)?
I am not making the value judgements that you clearly are here Keri. To my mind it is NOT a question of their “worthiness” at all it a question of how to curb unacceptable public behaviour.
If you want to set up free tucker fro these people go right ahead But I bet you that they won’t stop begging fro money. As i said I am not judging them at all, I have shared my tucker with the needy with out a second thought, but give people money so they can get shit-faced is another matter entirely
Look it this way Keri, If you gave money to someone who subsequently spends that cash on the grog or the drugs that ultimately kill them have you done them a “good ” or and “evil”. There is a very good reason why giving the broken people of the streets real things like food or clothing is the preferred MO of front-line charities and that is because money is far to often diverted into intoxicants. Now you may think that this is patronising but I think it is just good sense.
Good for you no perhaps you could drag Jeremy along next time so he can get some experience as well.
I’ve done my time helping the needy Keri as I have with the mentally ill and I have had many dealings with broken people some of whom I have been able to help and some who are impossible to help. It has made me rather more realistic than many of those who, like Jeremy, have the very best intentions and admirable compassion but bugger all street smarts about what is actually possible when it comes to helping the broken people.
“Yes I know that, but light a fire and you will be fine, the indigenous people have lived there for a very long tome before whitefella shelter as invented Jeremy and what makes you think the Alice Springs beggars of today can’t afford matches to light a fire?”
(a) You think it’s fine for beggars to be forced to live outside if they’re of a certain race?
(b) You think a fire is adequate warmth on a zero degree night?
(c) You think Alice Springs Town Council will let them light fires near the town?
“Or that their needs are food and shelter?”
Until ASTC can confirm that every beggar they’re moving on who asked for money for food and shelter was offered AT THAT MOMENT food and shelter, then we can start on that basis.
“As I said before the welfare function that you want them to preform is not one of their responsibilities: local councils take care of roads, rubbish and development issues, public libraries and the like, welfare is the responsibility of the state or territory and federal governments.”
It’s the responsibility of any law-making body proposing to fine beggars.
“Jeremy I have spent many years doing volunteer work in the community”
Doing what, precisely?
“and I have known enough fuck ups junkies and hopeless cases to understand that you just can’t save many of them”
So we shouldn’t bother making sure there’s food and shelter available, we should just make them starve and freeze? We should FINE BEGGARS? It’s their own fault, stiff, not my problem?
Really?
“my family and i have taken in “strays” on occasion only to have them steal from us, I have listened to the most elaborate sob stories told with great conviction only to later discover that it was all bullshit. What it boils down to is the necessity to take so much that is told to you by the “people of the streets” with a rather large” pinch of salt” “
And that’s the ultimate point for you, isn’t it? Some individual beggars and other people at the bottom of the heap have LIED TO YOU. Have TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF YOUR GENEROSITY. Of your COMPASSION.
So it’s run out. For all of them. And you don’t mind them being fined by a council that isn’t making sure they have real alternatives first.
“but beyond that I have personally been in the situation of not knowing where the next meal is coming form or how the bills will be met.”
But you made it! So screw those other people who didn’t, eh?
“I am not making the value judgements that you clearly are here Keri. To my mind it is NOT a question of their “worthiness” at all it a question of how to curb unacceptable public behaviour.”
Except that you are. In order to defend the ASTC proposal you have asserted that we shouldn’t mind punishing beggars because, in effect, many are liars (take this one who lied to me!) or thieves (take this one who stole from us!) or alcoholics or addicts or some other reason to suggest that they’re now not worthy of FOOD AND SHELTER.
“So if they are alcoholics and you are concerned with them getting a meal which is a better option , give them a feed or give them money (which they will use to buy grog)?”
You assume. But we’ve repeatedly said that what the council should be providing is not cash handouts but FOOD AND SHELTER. So I think you’ve missed our point.
Jeremy
Many indigenous people who come into Alice springs who are not begging are also more than happy to camp in the Todd river Jeremy. Don’t you get it? being inside at night is not essential
It certainly can be I spent months camping when my wife and I travelled around Australia and in the absence of rain being outside , even on a cold night, is fine if you have a fire.
I am sure that they do in the town camp areas.
WTF do you mean here?
Why is it their responsibility? Under what legislation are the council responsible for the welfare of these people?
Whydo you want specifics that you yourself do not offer?
That is not what I have said, and you have not even established that they will either starve or freeze.
Jeremy despite my experiences I still have compassion for the” poor and down trodden” I remain willing to help anyone that i encounter who is in need, but I am no longer willing to see them all as “victims of the system” or to think that what they tell me is the whole story. If you take the time to talk to anyone who works with the dregs of society they will be as much of a realist about these people as I am, even if they spend everyday trying to help them. The most important alternative that has to be found comes from within these people, rather than there being some sort of program or largess on offer. They have to be willing to help themselves. Sad to say that many can’t or won’t do that.
You love to twist my words don’t you? If I wanted to say that I would have done so. But I’ll take your response to mean that you have never known whit it is to be hungry or what it is like to have no roof over your head.
Even Gavin M concedes that much of the begging that is the centre of this question is not about food or shelter. Your emotional argument here is not based on any facts of the place in question. But spend some time with these people away from the safety of your professional role and you may get a bit closer to the truth.
No You miss the point because the bone of contention is them begging for money, not food or shelter
“Many indigenous people who come into Alice springs who are not begging are also more than happy to camp in the Todd river Jeremy. Don’t you get it? being inside at night is not essential”
IN what way is that, even if true, a justification for the council fining beggars who claim to be seeking money for food or shelter? Food and shelter are human rights.
“Why is it their responsibility? Under what legislation are the council responsible for the welfare of these people?”
They make it their responsibility when they seek to fine the beggars. If they’re fining them then they’re in effect asserting that they’re there by choice. And they can’t do that if they aren’t actually providing sufficient food or shelter options.
“Jeremy despite my experiences I still have compassion for the” poor and down trodden” I remain willing to help anyone that i encounter who is in need, but I am no longer willing to see them all as “victims of the system” or to think that what they tell me is the whole story.”
What has that got to do with not providing food and shelter? IT doesn’t matter WHAT their story is, or how true it is – it is simply wrong to fine someone for begging, particularly if you haven’t made sure they DO have other options for food and shelter that night.
“If you take the time to talk to anyone who works with the dregs of society they will be as much of a realist about these people as I am, even if they spend everyday trying to help them. The most important alternative that has to be found comes from within these people, rather than there being some sort of program or largess on offer. They have to be willing to help themselves. Sad to say that many can’t or won’t do that.”
Iain, I *do* work with these people. All the time. I’m entirely realistic about them.
What I don’t have is the naive idealism about the system that you seem to have. I know there are huge cracks in it. That people can be in a position where they can’t realistically get adequate assistance from Centrelink that day. Where there aren’t enough beds. Where there’s no food. Where there’s no way to get to those beds or food that are available. Where the mental health services are non-existent.
In this system, there is no excuse for authorities punishing people for begging.
“No You miss the point because the bone of contention is them begging for money, not food or shelter”
They are begging for food and shelter. The only way to repudiate that, Iain, would be for the council to be able to say that every single person they’ve moved on was first taken – on that day – to a service providing food and to a shelter. If they can’t say that, then they can’t contradict the beggar.
Jeremy
I am sure that you realise that the part of my last comment that you quote above was in response to your suggestion that beggars being outside at night is a terrible impost, and something that has to be addressed. Now I’ll give you a nod for trying to drag the argument back to what you think is the moral strength of your argument but you make yourself look rather silly by doing so. Oh yeah and you lose the debating point as well.
By this spurious logic councils should not fine people for parking infringements if the council does not provide adequate parking. The evidence seem to suggest that many of the beggars ARE doing so by choice so that they can buy grog and as I have asked you before please provide evidence that there are insufficient sources of food for the needy in Alice Springs . But i notice that you can only reiterate your assertion that the town council are obliged to help these people and that you are unable to provide anything other than that assertion to justify the obligation that you think that the ASTC has to these people which means to me that as a government body that they are NOT obliged to do as you suggest at all.
Once again you ignore the specific part of the topic I was referring to which was my personal experience i would say however that it is NOT wrong to fine any memeber of society for any sort of legal transgression, I will concede that it seems counter-intuitive to use a monetary sanction when people without funds commit public order offences. Which is why I was suggesting making them take a walk instead. A disincentive that cost them nothing in terms of the money that they don’t have.
Jeremy I am going to continue to believe that your working with them is in your professional capacity (you have not said otherwise),and I maintain that such contact does not equip you to really appreciate the problem.
So what you are saying is that because the system is imperfect then we just have to accept people begging on the streets , even when they are doing so to buy grog?
Please prove that they are begging for FOOD and shelter and please explain how the rest of your argument in this paragraph works, because it is incomprehensible, lacking any logic and does not make any sense .
Iain, the bylaw makes it an offence for someone to beg for food or shelter in public. There is no exception in the anti-begging bylaw that holds that it does not apply to people asking for money for food or shelter. Thus, the issue is CRIMINALISING THE ACT OF BEGGING FOR FOOD AND SHELTER. Whether it also criminalises begging for drugs or alcohol is not in any way a justification for CRIMINALISING THE ACT OF BEGGING FOR FOOD AND SHELTER.
“So what you are saying is that because the system is imperfect then we just have to accept people begging on the streets , even when they are doing so to buy grog?”
Yup.
“Jeremy I am going to continue to believe that your working with them is in your professional capacity (you have not said otherwise),and I maintain that such contact does not equip you to really appreciate the problem.”
Why?
“By this spurious logic councils should not fine people for parking infringements if the council does not provide adequate parking.”
Parking is not a human right.
“Now I’ll give you a nod for trying to drag the argument back to what you think is the moral strength of your argument but you make yourself look rather silly by doing so. Oh yeah and you lose the debating point as well.”
LOL. I’ll check with Leon. Have I been “pwned”?
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interesting debate…i rarely comment on these blogs but this issue was close to home. I’ve found myself in homeless shelters over the last 20 years, and used to beg for money on the streets. The reality is…(and I know from real experience, Ian Troll) is that I used to beg for money because I had nothing to look forward to and no hope at that time, so getting off my head was the preferable thing to do. Being hungry, destitute, homeless, lonely, cold; none of that matters as much when you’re wasted on junk or grog or whatever. Over the next few months I found a room in a roominghouse, got a job, started a new relationship, and most importantly, straightened out. I’ve worked in homeless agencies since then as a community worker, volunteered to give food vouchers to the poor and needy, and understand that the poverty cycle doesn’t always trap everyone in it forever, but a hell of a lot of people never rise above it. What exactly have you done to make society any better, Ian Troll? As for giving out fines to beggars in Alice Springs, all that will achieve is the incarceration of the mainly indigenous poor, surely they deserve a more humane response to their problems than that?
i believe that the people commenting on this blog that dont even live in alice springs live a sheltered life with no IDEA about the problems in alice.
you may have a PHD or study some fancy degree, or you may just be one complete smart ass. but i question how you can even comment on such an issue.
grow up! the protocol of council is for 28 days of public discussion. they havent passed it or denied it yet. i know you are putting your two cents in (whether it is worth it at all, no one knows…)…but your comments are not going to change it.
i also challenge you to come to Alice Springs and fight this if you feel SO passionate about it. but until then, read up on the facts. ACTUALLY read what the council and mayor have proposed. this bullshit that they are taking peoples blankets and BURNING THEM is complete and utter CRAPPPP. the blankets are returned and CLEANED by Tangenterye Council. Why bother making your self look completely stupid when you obviously heard one off by an aldermen (cough cough Jane Clark) who went shooting her moutjh off without even saying the right thing.
If ANYTHING this blog should be about how people like Jane Clark defame the good nature of the people like Damien ryan, Brendan Heenen, John rawnsley etc, and how people like HER should never have been allowed on the AS Town Concil.
Wow, anonymous. You’ve certainly countered all the criticisms that were made. I mean, you cited “the facts”! And alleged that we have “no idea” of the REALLY GOOD REASONS the council has for, again, fining beggars.
Still, before you go perhaps you might answer some of the following questions:
1. People who are begging because they have no food or shelter at that particular time, where are they meant to go instead? Have you checked that Alice Springs has adequate facilities to provide food and a bed for anyone who needs one? Or do you just not care if they go without food and shelter because they’re probably an alcoholic or something?
2. How are beggars meant to pay a fine?
3. Is it not the case that at the moment the blankets are cleaned and returned, but the proposed bylaw changes the rule so that they can instead be destroyed?
4. What special understanding do Territorians have on the subject of why fining beggars is a good idea that escapes the rest of us?
seriously. you are a moron without any clue.
the NEW beggins laws do not propose to steal the blankers and burn them or whatever the hell you keep making up along with the silly greens candidate in the council. they will always go to tangeterye council! the issue about throwing things away is if the rangers find a old wire bed or something (without anyone around) it is taken to the dump because you cant just set up camp anywhere.
the begging laws arent a stab at homeless people to actually make them pay. its going to be there so as the council can say to people it is there, so they can warn and move people on.
jason, your negative attitude about an issue you have no idea about really makes me feel sad for you. please, come to alice springs. oh thats right…you wouldnt have the balls would you? you can be a big man on the internet but not in real life.
“the begging laws arent a stab at homeless people to actually make them pay. its going to be there so as the council can say to people it is there, so they can warn and move people on.”
To where? Of course passing a law enabling the fining of beggars is a “stab at homeless people”.
“the NEW beggins laws do not propose to steal the blankers and burn them or whatever the hell you keep making up along with the silly greens candidate in the council. they will always go to tangeterye council! the issue about throwing things away is if the rangers find a old wire bed or something (without anyone around) it is taken to the dump because you cant just set up camp anywhere.”
My understanding is that the new bylaw permits council officers to dispose of homeless people’s blankets, where they presently do not have that power. Can you specifically deny that, by citing the actual bylaw in question?
Unfortunately, the council’s by-laws page hasn’t been updated with the proposed by-laws. Some “public consultation”.
“you wouldnt have the balls would you? you can be a big man on the internet but not in real life.”
Anonymous, you don’t even have the balls to come up with a pseudonym of your own, let alone use your real name. You’re hardly in a position to attack others’ courage.
Jane Clark has emailed me the link to the proposed by laws, and I’m just trying to figure out how to get the damn pdf to open without crashing Firefox or Acrobat.
Jeremy all that I can find in that PDF that relates to the issue at hand is this (from a screenshot)
Try 71. But I haven’t been able to open it on my computer.
The proper version that is open to public consultation should be available on the website on Friday.
Jeremy
item 71 is not that specific to begging at all either.
What? 71 adds “and dispose of” to the existing confiscation power – giving the council the ability to destroy homeless people’s belongings instead of returning them. And 57 criminalises begging.
I’m not quite sure how you could conclude they don’t say precisely what they do say.
Jeremy
there is a big difference between disposing of property that has been abandoned (as it says in the by law ) and the confiscation of property. I would think that something has to actually be in a persons possession for it to be “confiscated”.
They know the blankets belong to the homeless, and they know that the homeless who have stashed them in bushes will be back for them that night.
As for the criminalising of begging, it’s right there in black and white.
That is ignoring the point of difference that I made between abandonment and confiscation that I point out to you though isn’t it?
In a previous post at my own blog I have suggested that one of the best ways that the homeless can be given a helping hand is to provide them with places to store their possessions (like bedding) during the day and this may have some merit in a place like Alice Springs but to expect a town council to just ignore the mess and clutter of homeless people stuffing blankets under bushes in public places is ridiculous.Keeping the public places clean and tidy is the responsibility of a town council.
Since the intervention, there has obviously been a migration of slaves of the grog from many now dry communities into the bigger centres like Alice springs where they can buy grog there has also been a drying up of money in indigenous communities now that a proportion welfare has been quarantined and must be spent on life’s necessities. add to this the indigenous cultural requirement to share ( “humbugging”)and it isn’t hard to see why there has been enough of an upsurge in begging to inspire the council to act.
Now its all well and good for you to get high and mighty about the principle that we should not criminalise begging and to some extent I agree with you but what is to be done when you get an upsurge in the number of people doing this in one place like the Alice?
I take note of what Dean said in an earlier comment (and I have nothing but respect for him insofar as he has managed to get his life back together) that many or most of these people are never going to be functional members of society again (if they ever were) they are, as I have suggested, irredeemable. So the philosophical question becomes how does a society deal with the problem. You come across as thinking that a goodly number of them can be saved. but it is likely that the vast majority will never aspire to anything better no matter how much food or shelter they are provided with. As I see it we have the devil of a problem here, on one hand compassion dictates that we should help the needy and on the other hand it is socially very undesirable to make a life of indolence and inebriation too easy.
You may think that I am being too heartless here, just as I think that you are being lead too much by your heart and your obvious compassion but perhaps we can agree that drawing the right balance is the trick and if that were easy then we would not be debating the issue now.
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“That is ignoring the point of difference that I made between abandonment and confiscation that I point out to you though isn’t it?”
It’s a meaningless one and not worthy of response.
“to expect a town council to just ignore the mess and clutter of homeless people stuffing blankets under bushes in public places is ridiculous.Keeping the public places clean and tidy is the responsibility of a town council.”
The difference this bylaw makes is that they can DESTROY the blankets rather than returning them to the homeless people.
“add to this the indigenous cultural requirement to share ( “humbugging”)and it isn’t hard to see why there has been enough of an upsurge in begging to inspire the council to act.”
How does this help humbugging? Surely it makes it worse.
“what is to be done when you get an upsurge in the number of people doing this in one place like the Alice?”
Make sure you have facilities to provide food and shelter, and move them into those. If they opt out and go back to begging then, by all means, move them back in.
“You come across as thinking that a goodly number of them can be saved.”
From starvation and the elements, yes.
“it is likely that the vast majority will never aspire to anything better no matter how much food or shelter they are provided with.”
Fortunately we’re not a third world country and can, as a community, offer the infinite patience required to make sure that no matter what their previous poor decisions, there’s always a way out.
“As I see it we have the devil of a problem here, on one hand compassion dictates that we should help the needy and on the other hand it is socially very undesirable to make a life of indolence and inebriation too easy.”
It’s never going to be that easy or attractive. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of people will aspire to more, if they can feel it’s plausible and there’s a real hope of it. Very few enjoy feeling like a burden on society.
Holy crap Iain, you’re such a fucking joke. Do you even believe that tripe you’re peddling?
Is the name of your blog “Point of View from another Racist Dickhead”?
If not, i suggest you change it to make it as accurate as possible.
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Iain: “I have suggested that one of the best ways that the homeless can be given a helping hand is to provide them with places to store their possessions (like bedding) during the day and this may have some merit in a place like Alice Springs …”
Absolutely – a great idea that should be adopted. And if they did, then the argument in favour of confiscating/destroying “abandoned” blankets etc. would be much stronger. As I understand it, however, there is currently no such facility leaving the homeless with little choice but to leave their stuff under bushes. As Jeremy has been saying all along, if there are genuine alternatives available to people, then we can begin to talk about punishments. Where there are no alternatives (as here), punishing people for trying to survive is obscene.
Criminalising begging is like spraying perfume on gangrene. Trying to remove one superficial symptom of a deeper problem won’t make it go away – and will probably make it worse.