I’m not optimistic.
UPDATE: Dammit, I hate being right.
But check out the polishing of that turd:
Mr Rudd says the agreement represents progress and recalled seven times in the final stretch when the 194-nation summit could have broken up in disarray.
“There was a grave risk that these negotiations would collapse altogether and we would have had a triumph of inaction over action,” he said. “Instead we had a result that underpins action. That represents substantial progress.”
Sure, it isn’t action. But it “underpins” that we might consider some kind of activity that could vaguely be called “action” at some time in the future. Maybe.
Yeah, we suck.
Moved On 
Don’t worry – when the oceans rise and the landscape burns in an endless summer, they will soon forget their stupid bickering in the race for survival.
And it’s the one area where I’m desperately hoping against hope that they’re right – I’ll trade a habitable planet for the dubious consolation of being able to say “I told you so” any day.
I doubt it. In a genuine race for survival, the opportunity for co-operation will be behind us, and the bickering will turn to all out fighting. Desperation will do that to people.
If the human race is really this incapable of pulling together and doing what needs to be done when the risk is so high, we deserve everything we get. It’s just a shame we will take so many beautiful parts of this planet down with us while we’re busy mindlessly throwing away our civilisation due to our juvenile infatuation with economic growth and endless consumption.
I’d rather not be lumped in with the “we” that didn’t give a shit and deserved to perish.
http://www.theage.com.au/environment/un-climate-conference/climate-deal-good-but-not-perfect-says-flannery-20091219-l68c.html
That gives Flannery’s perspective.
It appears to me that everyday citizens don’t take the issue seriously. If they did, they would really do something about it.
Well I’m staying optimistic. Look at how far we’ve come in 2 years! If we’d elected John Howard again there’s now way we’d even been at Copenhagen.
We now know that China refused to act because the US did fuck all: the minute the US gets a cooperative President they are at the negotiating table – and remember that China can act in ways democracies can’t (if that’s not invoking my inner Clive Hamilton).
Climate change is now front and centre in Australian politics, NZ has put a price on GHGEs, the Waxman-Markey bill will go through Congress (O is talking about ‘new rules’ that remove the minority filibustering option in order to facilitate it’s passage), deforestation is now in play (at last!), and we’ve got the 2 big polluters in China and the US at the table.
Bring on Germany in 6mths time and Mexico in 12mths.
“e’re busy mindlessly throwing away our civilisation due to our juvenile infatuation with economic growth and endless consumption.”
Well put, Dentarthurdent.
There’s no economy on a dead planet.
Well I’m staying optimistic. Look at how far we’ve come in 2 years! If we’d elected John Howard again there’s now way we’d even been at Copenhagen.
You are so seriously deluded. LOL Copenhagen was such a monumental failure. So much for that “consensus”?!.
and remember that China can act in ways democracies can’t (if that’s not invoking my inner Clive Hamilton).
You mean like telling the world to f-off at Copenhagen in regards to a climate treaty?!
You people are so blinded by your own faith in AGW that you can’t see the reality of what is happening. Oh well, at least your denial of the truth gives me a good laugh.
We now know that China refused to act because the US did fuck all: the minute the US gets a cooperative President they are at the negotiating table
WTF? I thought Obama was the great massiah that was going to unit the world behind climate change .
Karen: the climate change agenda is now being driven by 2 of the world’s largest emitters. If you think the issue is going to go away then I’m afraid it is *you* who is deluded.
And on the subject of messiahs I seem to recall you recently declaring Abbott to be the new messiah for the Liberals. Since taking over the leadership there have been 3 polls, all showing either no movement, or movement backwards.
LOL indeed.
Faith is believing something without any actual proof. Like believing in the Bible or Koran. Or believing that Tony Abbott will be different (i.e. not a fuckwit) now that he is opposition leader
We don’t have “faith” in AGW – there’s proof through peer reviewed and rigorous science.
We don’t have “faith” in AGW – there’s proof through peer reviewed and rigorous science
Ever heard of Climategate?! That proof is more through fraud and deception.
Karen: the climate change agenda is now being driven by 2 of the world’s largest emitters
LOL. And didn’t they show the world at Copenhagen how that was done?! You are more deluded than I ever thought. I suppose you also believe that Santa will visit your house on Christmas morning to?!
Hi Mighty,
you still owe $50 to a charity over Howard’s loss in 2007.
Ever heard of Climategate?! That proof is more through fraud and deception.
LOL! Now who believes in santa.
And didn’t they show the world at Copenhagen how that was done?!
They sure did. That’s what leadership can do.
And I should add that evidence that an international climate treaty is moving forward is the fact that the wingnut denialists like Karen are out in force this weekend. Dying entities often thrash wildly about before quietly slipping into oblivion. And so it is with the denialist industry who are even more on the margins.
” Upon the detection of an enormous battlefleet heading towards our solar system the leaders of the various nations of the planet Earth came together in an historic meeting to set aside their differences and
create what is now known as the Star Forceto let the people of earth bow down to their new masters “I am interested in how you people are going to respond to the rapidly declining poll numbers for alarmism over AGW?
SA,
“meh” – us people
Aussie Unionist
Two things you need to understand about Science
1. Science journals – even peer-reviewed ones – do not and have never provided “proof” of anything.
2. Predictions are not proof.
Is it possible to talk about anything related to climate change on the internet without attracting denialists ?
The signal to noise ratio is getting to the point where tuning out is attractive — maybe that’s what these Mighty/SA/MarkL/Karens et al want.
Please for the love of Bob (nb. not Brown — you subparsubgeniuses) can the next commentator refer to the original post which is about leaders of nations reaching agreeements …
Why would you expect nearly 200 governments to reach agreement when they each have their own interests, which will inevitably be 180 degrees to the interests of dozens of other governments?
If only we had given Kevin his ETS. Oh how he would have strutted around Copenhagen preaching righteousness to the political grandees.
Instead we shackled our own prophet rendering his mighty entourage impotent. His seven media advisers and his photographer had no useful purpose to serve. There was no triumph to preserve for posterity. A vacuous and dismal statement symbolising the limp end of a futile wankfest.
The leaders of the world cast a massive carbon footprint at the conference, but they couldn’t get a treaty, or even an agreement. Pathetically, our little Kev did not make the select group which hammered out the final statement. Its sad to think of him bereft of all power and influence, eating his earwax in the Danish snow.
In a sense it is fitting that a grand political game was brought down by politics.
They sure did. That’s what leadership can do.
LOL oh confessions, you really have the ability to make me laugh really hard. Your ability to believe that Copenhagen was a success for believers in AGW is so Orwelian that you put the book 1984 to shame.
Well atleast we can agree on something, we are both delighted with the outcome of Copenhagen.
The signal to noise ratio is getting to the point where tuning out is attractive — maybe that’s what these Mighty/SA/MarkL/Karens et al want.
It *is* what is happening to them, which is why they are out in force. Like I said, as entities are dying they usually have a last futile burst of thrashing about.
Karen: 1 year ago neither the US nor China were active participants in global climate change action. Now they are – and not only participants, but driving the process. You can choose to deny that objective fact if you wish, but you really do look silly with your theological language, and reference to a book it is quite clear you’ve never read.
“Faith is believing something without any actual proof. Like believing in the Bible or Koran. Or believing that Tony Abbott will be different (i.e. not a fuckwit) now that he is opposition leader”
Or AGW denialism.
“Ever heard of Climategate?! That proof is more through fraud and deception.
Those emails don’t discount decades of research. I’ll listen to the experts and read what they have to say (you know, actual scientists).
Confessions, niether China nor the U.S. could afford not to attend, but don’t mistake their attendance and leadership (of course they should lead – they are the globes biggest emmiters) for any actual progress. When binding, enforcable targets are discussed, then we can reassess. All that came out of that conference was a bland, non-enforcable political document. Oh, and plenty of carbon emissions from 45,000 delegates, lets not forget those.
Sorry, I should have said CO2, as carbon doesn’t float in the atmosphere.
cemil: I’m not saying COP15 wasn’t disappointing for the absence of a binding agreement. I’m dismissing claims that it was a failure by noting just how far things have moved in such a short timeframe. I am also scornful of the wingnut mindset in which the Copenhagen outcome is in some way indicative of AGW not a real phenomenon. WTF?
I wonder what outcomes we might see from a conference with more competent Chair/s? COP15 was reportedly not chaired very efficiently or competently. Bring on Germany!
It appears to me that everyday citizens don’t take the issue seriously. If they did, they would really do something about it.
We don’t take it seriously and we never will – I reckon that’s just a fact.
Let’s be honest. How many of the readers here have stepped on a plane in the last year to fly for business or pleasure? How many hours of electricity have we used gaming? How many of us eat meat, drive the car to work, bought a new TV, left the lights on at home when we went out, went fishing in a tinny – shit any of the countless things we do that produce emissions?
I don’t know about you guys but I’ve done all of those things. I’ve flown to Perth and back twice for business, five times to Melbourne and three to Canberra. I’ve just bought a new car and will be driving all over the state over Christmas to visit friends and family. I’ll be eating ham and turkey and pulling crackers and buying stupid little wasteful gifts and taking Dad’s boat out for a fish (or five).
I mean – we do the little easy things, like paying extra for the ‘offsets’ on our flights and walking to the shops every now and then but seriously – how much change have any of us really made to our lives? How much would you even be willing to give up to be a better environmental citizen?
I think it’s time we accepted that the overwhelming consensus on that question, when it really comes down to it, would be “not much”.
Our solution lies in a differernt direction to emissions trading schemes or carbon output limits. I think we need to look at ways of dealing with the warming that’s coming, rather than pissing away our society in a totally fruitless attempt to stop it.
Ways of “dealing with the warming that’s coming”:
I dealt with the consequence of getting hit by a car by flying through the air and trying not to die or seriously injure myself when I landed. Luckily for me I succeeded.
Of course, the tool driving the car could have driven much more slowly through the carpark at the back of the surf-club after the party, but he was having a good time racing about with his mates driving fast.
I could have dived out of the way like everyone else did instead of waiting until it was too late and then diving the way he swerved at the last minute.
Prick actually asked me to pay for his broken windscreen!
“pissing away our society in a totally fruitless attempt to stop it”.
As oil production and export falls (currently about 85million barrels every day), as this ‘never-ending growth’ economic model fails and breaks down, as our way of governance increasingly becomes draconian and undemocratic, as all of that artificially increases the population, and as the media continues to perform its PR role as managers of the people, yes, let’s move on to the next phase: adaptation.
“Society” will be pissed away by the effects regardless. There may be some scope for minimising those effects.
Mondo, you haven’t gone all nukelar have you?
PS: managed zero flights for a few years, small car replaced bigger car (the stupid tax system means you have to get a new car every five years even if you don’t need one and penalises you if you don’t, AND that giant tax does not go anywhere near CO2), only buying organic free range meat from local small business (who actually owns his own land, grows his own animals, butchers them -taste is excellent), eating about 20% less meat anyway, only presents this year were delicious Green Mango Chutney made from publicly free green mangoes that would have just fallen and rotted.
The point is that it is not only piss-easy to reduce, and enjoy it, but that the lie is that it would be the end of the world if you don’t.
End of the world for some people, great for a whole bunch of people.
Always enjoy your musings Mondo, merry end of this year’s diary to you and everyone else.
Barp!
Our solution lies in a differernt direction to emissions trading schemes or carbon output limits. I think we need to look at ways of dealing with the warming that’s coming, rather than pissing away our society in a totally fruitless attempt to stop it.
No and yes.
No in that putting price on GHGEs ie using price signals, is the most effective way of moderating behaviour. Every time there’s a sustained price rise in petrol we see more people on public transport. Every time there’s a sustained price rise in cigarrettes we see a decline in the smoking prevalence. So it will be with GHGEs.
However ‘yes’ in that it’s too late to avert the crisis. We will have to adapt. This will likely take the effect of far more rigorous local govt planning regulations, and greater impositions upon our lifestyle more generally. Interesting times ahead that for sure!
I could have dived out of the way like everyone else did instead of waiting until it was too late and then diving the way he swerved at the last minute.
I guess I’m wondering, having watched the farce of Copenhagen, whether diving out of the way is actually an option anymore. The realist in me looks at China, the developing world and even the Western world and asks “is it reasonable to assume that the world can unite to face this problem?”
My personal opinion is that the answer is no. We can’t even unite within Australia – we have an already eroded support base for action on climate change and in six months time the Liberals will have eroded that even further.
Barp – you’ve obviously walked the talk far more successfully than I have. Sounds like you’ve been serious in your attempts to reduce your footprint, and have had some significant success. For what it’s worth you have my respect for your clear commitment to this cause.
But I ask you – do you think enough people around the world will embrace the changes you have made before it’s too late?
Confessions – I tend to agree that a CPRS is likely to be the most effective way of changing behaviour but we’ve got to get the people to agree to one first!!!
If enough people in just Aus and US made simple savings and were slightly less profligate wasters the average people of the rest of the world wouldn’t have to do much at all on a personal level. So, “no”, they won’t.
In keeping with the christmas spirit….
Humankind is heading for a serious die off in the next 20 years.
We are subject to the same natural laws and limits to growth as any other living thing. We are not exceptional.
The truth is we are running out of easily accessable oil, we are running out of fresh water and we are running out of phosphorous.
Without these inputs, industrial agriculture is not possible. Without industrial agriculture, maintaining our current population is not possible.
Global agricultural production is falling, but global population is not.
The immediate future holds nothing for us, except for the reality of billions of people starving to death, dying from disease and murdering each other over access to dwindling water, food and energy resources.
The only way to prepare for these changes is to take responsibility for yourself and your families, set up well organised, well armed and totally self sufficient doomsteads and be prepared to flee the cities when things get ugly.
Planning for climate change Mondo?
Probably the best bet, as we sure can’t stop it from happening now.
Personally, im just planning for my family and friends to be among the 10-20% of our current population that can be sustained without modern agriculture, plentiful energy and reliable weather patterns.
Stop worrying, and learn to love the doom 😉
But then again, just on the willingness of individual countries to act, China made a massive effort to reduce its polution levels before the olympics last year. So we know it *can* be done.
“So we know it *can* be done.”
But only by halting all construction and closing down all manufacturing in and around beijing.
And it was only for a few months, and only around one city. If such changes were made permanent across the nation, any idea what Chinas unemployment levels would reach?
What do you reckon the ramifications of such high levels of unemployment would be?
BTW confessions, speaking of China and their environmental credentials, are you aware that aquifer depletion is so severe in and around beijing that some sections of the city are suffering major subsidence?
And that irrigated agriculture in China has so depleted underground water supplies that they will be unable to provide their own food requirements within a few short years?
And that the same is happening in the US, India and Pakistan?
In fact, a significant amount of global food production is irrigated with ground water, which is being depleted at a rate far in excess of replacement.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=aquifer+depletion+consequences+food+production&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=
I was speaking more about knowing the will is there to act, and the willingness of countries to act when it suits them.
But then again, just on the willingness of individual countries to act, China made a massive effort to reduce its polution levels before the olympics last year. So we know it *can* be done.
… And santa is really and lives at the north pole.
LOL OH confessions you really are living on fantasy island. You are comedy gold with your naive gullability.
At least I think about things Karen and there is logic behind my comments. Unlike you who just mindlessly spouts whatever you’ve read by any number of intellectually bankrupt wingnuts in our media. And your blatherings aren’t even original.
LOL indeed!
So Mighty,
Where is that $50?
Karen’s just pissed ’cause (if memory serves) you handed her arse last time she commented here, confessions.
I wouldn’t bother biting. If PP is anything to go by, you seem to attract these sort of haters!
Thanks Duncan, it’s actually a hoot – Karen is completely unable to use reasoned logic to explain his/her position, only hysterical shrieking.
I thought Mighty Matt became Rad Pipper? Does this mean Rad is back under a new pseudonym?
Exactly what i was thinking.