In light of Kevni’s apparently embarrassing cock-up in India, I thought you might like to know that our vegetarian experiment is still going strong.
In fact, right now we’re eating a delicious vegetarian vindaloo, made with cauliflower, tomatoes and spinach, and accompanied by tasty roti bread and home-made raita (yoghurt, cucumber, cumin, coriander and mint from the garden).
We’ve occasionally lapsed – at other people’s houses, when stuck without other food options late at night – but rarely. More than two months later, it’s working out well.
I’m sorry, Nandos – it looks like we won’t be back, after all.
Moved On 
Jeremy,
If you want a quick and easy vegan curry try these
With the rendang one, I use two packets and add a can of chopped tomatoes.
And with the mini ‘steak’, two packets again with a little added water to thin the sauce out.
I couldn’t work out how this was supposed to be a “gaffe” either – I’ve been vego for 11 years and vegan for almost 10 of those years – we still have barbecues (vegie burgers, sausages, roast vegies etc)
Considering that Rudd is acting like an utter bastard with those poor sods on the Oceanic Viking, there are plenty grounds to criticise him without the need for lame media beat ups like this…
I always make vego’s at my BBQ’s cook their soylent burgers on a seperate hotplate.
I just don’t want tofu juice getting on my steak.
I couldn’t agree more Duncan!
Good Ole Australian fried cereals as dough[flour and water,for the uniniated] and have, garlic chilli,vegemite, buttered milk,sorry, rice milk,strips of cabbage, silverbeet ,beetroot mixed proportionally and added any Indian herbal mix you like,and cook it in ghee or coconut milk come oil,on the hotplate.A bit like battered fish, and then their are even organic breadcrumbs you can buy pre-packaged.Add bean shoots and radishes so one has a fresh chew.Add sliced tomato on the top.Parsley sprig for mouth hygiene. It is no wonder I don’t do this,a barbecue is right out of my buying and upkeep range.
I respect your choice of course, but it would be better for the planet to support sustainable farming, rather than rejecting some food production because of un-scientific, ideological opinions (not that I know what your reason for this is).
Yes, meat can be produced sustainably, and on farming land that is not suitable to grow other forms of protein.
Eating meat IS good for your health.
Killing animals for food can be (and in most cases is) done in a way that doesn’t subject the animal to suffering.
Killing for food is ethical in my view, what are we going to do, start locking up all wild carnivores because they kill in a way that causes their prey to suffer?
Yes, I agree with the argument that some people should eat less meat for health reasons, but I know many vego’s with health problems, we all need to watch our diet. I have also watched my partner’s health improve by including fish in her diet.
Vegetarianism, amongst most of the vego’s and vegan’s I know, is very much an Ideological position taken by city people who are totally out of touch with the realities of sustainable food production and the impacts of animal farming in Australia.
If you just don’t like meat then fine. If you think you are ‘saving the planet’ or ‘saving your health’ then you are ignorant and need to get out to an organic farm and talk to your Doctor.
BTW, I am in no way supporting some of the cruel and un-sustainable farming practices that do still exist but don’t believe this to be a logical reason to all go vego.
Would like to see this kind of site in Australia.
http://www.saisriskandarajah.com/happymeat/why.php
“BTW, I am in no way supporting some of the cruel and un-sustainable farming practices that do still exist but don’t believe this to be a logical reason to all go vego”
The reason we’ve adjusted our eating habits is because whilst there exists alternatives to supporting cruel farming practices, we (Jeremy particularly, since I’m still eating red meat occasionally) can’t really justify eating meat – particularly chicken, which has bugger all nutritional value – knowing how it ends up on the plate.
“Killing animals for food can be (and in most cases is) done in a way that doesn’t subject the animal to suffering”
In the case of grinding male chicks whilst they’re still alive or debeaking chickens rather than give them sufficient room, or in the horrible, horrible way veal is manufactured, that just isn’t the case.
But, each to his own.
And let’s not forget the sheep and cattle that Australian farmers send live to the Middle East for slaughter in horrific conditions after an already horrific voyage there.
“Australian sheep are starting to leave for the Middle East for the annual Festival of Sacrifice (Eid al-Adha). Last year we condemned around one million sheep to this cruel fate.
During the festival, thousands of sheep are slaughtered in homes, on footpaths and in overcrowded abattoirs. The sheer scale of the slaughter makes this period one of the worst times for animal suffering in the Middle East.”
http://www.rspca.org.au/how-you-can-help/campaigns/live-exports/get-on-board.html
You can justify it all you like, Craigy, and perhaps your farming practices are humane, but the majority of them aren’t.
Keri and Daphon,
I agree with your points about the cruelty that still exists.
My point is this is not logically a good reason to stop eating meat.
For Jeremy, not eating chicken is fair enough if all you can get is farmed stuff, but you can get well looked after free range chicken then there is no reason not to eat it.
Keri, I don’t know where you get your info, but chicken is very good for you (not fried).
“It is a great source of low fat protein providing 67.6% of the daily value for protein in 4 ounces.
Chicken is a very good source of the cancer-protective B vitamin, niacin. Components of DNA require niacin, and a deficiency of niacin (as well as other B-complex vitamins) has been directly linked to genetic (DNA) damage. A four-ounce serving of chicken provides 72.0% of the daily value for niacin.
Chicken is also a good source of the trace mineral, selenium. Selenium is of fundamental importance to human health. It is an essential component of several major metabolic pathways, including thyroid hormone metabolism, antioxidant defence systems, and immune function.”
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=116
I don’t know where you and Jeremy are getting your info Keri, but I think you need to do some more research before you jump on the vego band wagon. It seems you are following this fad in a way that could be bad for you long term.
Daphon, I do agree that the cruel slaughter you discribe is unacceptable and within our power to stop.
One question though, as it is also in our power, should we go and round up all the Lions in Africa, and feed them meat only killed in a nice way?
You do know how Lions kill, dont you?
Why don’t we stop their cruel killing methods?
Craigy,
We as humans have a choice. How many humans, particularly city people and ‘townies’, do you think would eat meat if they had to kill it themselves, of if abattoirs had glass walls and were located in shopping malls?
Based on average of US consumers…
U.S. Per Capita Meat Consumption 2007
Chicken…87 lb (15 lives)
Turkey… 18 lb (2 lives)
Veal…1lb
Lamb…1 lb
Beef…66 lb (1 lives)
Pork…51 lb (1 lives)
Fish…16.6 lb (80 lives)
Shellfish/other fish…8.8 lb (200 lives)
Eggs…259 (259 lives)
Total…20 warm blooded animals + 259 eggs + 500 cold blooded animals per capita.
Based on US consumption pattern alone, and assume “other factors remained unchanged”…
Total world population 6.6 billion
Estimated global Vegetarians are 10%=0.66 billion
Therefore, total lives saved by vegetarians worldwide…
Warm blooded animals…13.20 billions
Cold blooded animals…330 billions
Eggs …170.94 billions
—————————-
Total…514.14 billion of Lives
—————————-
Click to access Per-Cap-Cons-Meat-1.pdf
http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/pubs/stats_dairy_egg.html
Click to access 08_perita2004.pdf
I have no idea why you keep arguing it’s not logical. It’s good for the environment, health (on the basis most people over-consume animal products) and stops the slaughter of animals.
We do not need to eat flesh, eggs, consume dairy, etc.
Hey, you don’t have to be vego to know that Nandos is crap!
“Why don’t we stop their cruel killing methods?”
Absurd!
I don’t get nandos. A premium price over hungry jacks for what? A nicer restaurant? Slower service? Worse burgers?
Pedantically, you are NOT eating a vegetarian vindaloo. There are many many vegetarian curries, most of my curries are vegie, but they have the appropriate names. Vindaloo can’t be vegetarian. Pork mostly.
What was the reason for you two going vego in the first place anyway?
Morons. What’s Rudd’s/Rotary’s initative should have been:
Invite An Indian Around TO WATCH THE FREAKIN CRICKET
Just as culturally stereotypical but this has the advantage of actually being a truly bilaterally popular uniting force, whatever ends up being eaten, particularly if either side is playing against England. And at the end of the night suitably intense yet mutually respectful discussions around the respective greatness of Bradman vs Tendulkar and such forth can be oiled over with a jolly old singalong to 10CC’s “Dreadlock Holiday”.
Also NB to Daphon: assuming that US consumption patterns apply to all 6.6billion humans on earth is a fairly reliable path to being wrong with your end numbers. For which we’re actually lucky.
I have no ethics when it comes to food.
If it tastes good, I eat it and bugger how it got on my plate.
Even maccas, Lynda?!
“I have no ethics when it comes to food.”
I have to admit I’m the same, I did forgo pig for a couple of years and I buy free range eggs. Though I’m pretty unethical when it comes to what goes in my gob I respect and admire those who make sacrifices for what I reckon are decent reasons.
Besides, with regard to the topic we aren’t talking about large numbers of people so all the arguments about sustainability and popn density are moot.
^^ oops wrong thread.
Rob J and Daphon,
I personally don’t see a problem with eating animals that are treated well, killed without suffering and farmed in a sustainable way. Why do you have a problem with that?
Is it just that you don’t like killing anything, in the style of a Buddhist?
If so, why is it absurd to stop Lions killing their food in the way they do. They don’t kill their food in nice way, the animals they kill suffer sometimes for hours, and are often eaten while still alive.
We have a choice, we can remove all lions from the wild and feed them on animals killed in a nice, clean way, so they don’t suffer like they do in the wild.
Why let this suffering happen, you two can stop it. Go and save those poor animals from the vicious Lions.
It is natural for us to eat meat, if you choose not to that’s fine with me.
If your push to stop people from eating any meat is based on current farming or killing practices and not on your Buddhist belief that killing anything is wrong, then I agree with you.
The logical answer is to improve our farming to make it sustainable, and to make sure that animals are killed quickly in the least painful way.
Can you tell me why I am so evil for thinking this way? I just don’t get why you think we should stop something so natural?
“Veganism isn’t just a strict vegetarian diet; it is a complete philosophical viewpoint. It is practical in outlook, simple to understand and aspires to the highest environmental and spiritual values. I am sure it holds the key to a future lifestyle for a humane planetary guardianship.”
– Howard Lyman, former cattle rancher, international lecturer, author of Mad Cowboy
“If so, why is it absurd to stop Lions killing their food in the way they do.”
That you have to ask such a stupid question indicates to me that I’d be wasting my time ‘debating’, what don’t you understand about humans having a choice of killing humanely and cruelly and lions don’t. Seriously???
But Rob, my point is we have a choice to stop Lions from killing this way and we don’t do it, think of the suffering that we could stop if we did.
Why don’t we stop Lions from killing, because killing for food is natural.
Daphon, You can have high environmental values and be able to eat meat.
As for spiritual values, I don’t have any magical friends in the sky so I don’t understand what you mean.
Instead of calling me stupid and putting up quotes from some looney farmer, perhapes you could adress my point and actually defend your position.
I really am keen to know why you think that not eating meat is the answer, given that I have shown that it can be done in a sustainable way and is natural for humans.
“..it is a complete philosophical viewpoint. It is practical in outlook, simple to understand and aspires to the highest environmental and spiritual values I am sure it holds the key to a future lifestyle for a humane planetary guardianship.”
Those who practice permaculture or homesteading, and who include small amounts of animal products in their diet believe the same of their system, Daphon.
I also have a relevant quote..
“Vegan farming is a land management system that excludes animals on an ideological basis, thus reducing soil fertility and creating work for the farmer. ”
– Duncan ********, Farmer and Permaculture practitioner, author of “Why Veganism Makes Baby Jesus Cry”
“But Rob, my point is we have a choice to stop Lions from killing this way and we don’t do it,”
Because it’s absurd and you’re behaving like an idiot!
“It is practical…and aspires to the highest environmental standards”
To be serious for a moment, how is it practical to remove animals from a managed ecosystem?
I am unaware of any ecosystem in nature that maintains fertility without the normal cycling of nutrient through plants and animals living, dying and then returning to the soil.
Fertility must be maintained. You cannot remove more from a patch of dirt than you put back into it. This can be achieved through addition of chemical fertilizers, or animal byproducts and manure.
As vegan farmers refuse to use any animal products as fertilizer, they must rely on either conventional chemical fertilizers* which degrade the soil over time, composted organic material (which must also be sourced from a “vegan” source*) or biodynamics (Which is sadly not based in reality, and is unsustainable.)
The result of widespread vegan farming would be disasterous. It seems to me that vegan farming puts animal rights first, human’s come in second and the earth comes in dead last.
“Because it’s absurd and you’re behaving like an idiot!”
This = Truth, Craigy.
Anyone interested in genuinely sustainable agriculture should have a look at these topics..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Sequence_Farming
“The method involves implementing major earthworks on a given area of land that has been devestated by deforestation and general agricultural activities, to emulate the role of natural watercourses in an effort to reverse salinity, slow erosion and increase soil and water quality to enable native vegetation to regenerate and restore the riparian zone. The method does not require the use of artificial fertilisers or herbicides.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
“Permaculture is an approach to designing human settlements and perennial agricultural systems that mimics the relationships found in natural ecologies. ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrarianism
“Agrarianism is the social and political philosophy..that a rural or semi-rural lifestyle.. such as farming or ranching, leads to a fuller, happier, cleaner, and more sustainable way of life…through the contact with nature, the agrarian acquires the virtues of honor, manliness, self-reliance, courage, moral integrity, and hospitality”
(i’ll shut up now:)
So I am stupid and an idiot.
Well, it is a shame that you can’t argue without insults. I think you are reasonable people and I take your opinions and views as reasonable and try not to insult you. Please try and do the same.
My comparison between stopping humans from eating meat because it is cruel, and humans stopping Lions from doing the same is, in my view, legitimate. If you demand an end to cruelty that is within our power to stop, why not stop all cruelty to animals, why be selective?
Rather than call me stupid, it would be nice if you address my point please.
Duncan has some very good points. You could try addressing those as well RobJ and Daphon.
Okay, let me put it another way, not so absurd.
In a Zoo, should the keepers let an antelope into the Lions cage so the Lion can kill it or should they feed the Lion meat killed in an ‘ethical’ way?
Or should all Lions be forced to eat vegies?….(sorry that is absurd).
“So I am stupid and an idiot.”
I said you are behaving like an idiot.
“Duncan has some very good points.”
Like this one?
”
“Because it’s absurd and you’re behaving like an idiot!”
This = Truth, Craigy.”
You realise that Duncan thinks your argument about lions is idiotic?
I’d like to clarify that RobJ,
A couple of the points Craigy raised are quite valid and worth discussing, ie that it is possible to eat meat that has been produced in an ethical and environmentally sustainable way.
The lion argument is what i specifically think is silly.
“should the keepers let an antelope into the Lions cage so the Lion can kill it or should they feed the Lion meat killed in an ‘ethical’ way?”
Im not quite sure what point you are trying to make Craigy, could you elaborate?
As i see it, it would be inhumane to feed live animals to a predator in a zoo.
What happens in the wild, or what is “natural behaviour” really has no bearing on what is humane in a managed system like a farm, a zoo or even a town for that matter.
Daphon, your numbers on consumption of meat to lives sacrificed are somewhat suspect.
“Beef…66 lb (1 lives)”
Nope. A grass fed steer will provide more than 400 lbs of meat dressed weight.
Pork…51 lb (1 lives)
Nope. A freerange pig carcass
will provide at least 120 lbs of meat.
Eggs…259 (259 lives).
Nope. An egg is a potential life only, so unless you care to join with our mates on the Christian Right in declaring abortion as murder, eating an egg is not “ending a life”
Don’t get me wrong BTW, i hate conventional meat production, and i hate industrialized abbatoir’s.
Duncan, “that it is possible to eat meat that has been produced in an ethical and environmentally sustainable way.”
Ethically, no, as I don’t believe in killing.
Craigy,
Mate, I can’t argue with you about lions, or any other carnivorous creatures in the wild, because your point just doesn’t make sense and is entirely unrealistic.
I know plenty of people with old and healthy dogs and cats which have been vegan since birth. That is something that is possible to do.
I’m a vegan primarily because I’m against any form of the use of animals, dead or alive, by humans (yes, I guess I’m a hypocrite in one way as I have two Jack Russells, but, then again, is that using them? Perhaps not.). Secondary considerations of environment, health or whatever are just added bonuses.
And I believe dairies are as cruel, maybe even crueler, than livestock breeding for meat. I think most people only think of Daisy the cow and not her male calves or what happens when her milk production is not ‘optimum best practice’.
“ie that it is possible to eat meat that has been produced in an ethical and environmentally sustainable way.”
I have no argument with that.
“I know plenty of people with old and healthy dogs and cats which have been vegan since birth. That is something that is possible to do.”
Is it really? For cats? I thought it possible for dogs but I was under the impression that cats are pure carnivores.
Very interesting, I’m reading about vegetarian cat food on Wiki..
Thanks for your answers, much better than name calling.
I don’t think I am behaving like an Idiot RobJ, you may disagree with my comparison, but just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it idiotic.
In fact RobJ, Daphon goes on to compare humans with dogs and cats, which is fine I suppose.
My point in bringing up Lions (which don’t live in the truly wild anymore, they live in zoo’s or large parks) was to show how illogical the ‘humans have a choice not to kill animals’ argument is.
If people were fair dinkum about that view, then the argument I would make is why we don’t make the choice to stop all animal suffering, including that done by other animals.
You see killing for food is natural for all meat eating animals, including us. If you are going to make the argument that, because we can think, we should stop killing, then you can’t be selective. If your ethics say stop animals being killed then you can’t go half way. You have to think it all the way through.
I think it is fine to kill for food. As a thinking human though, it is only ethical if the killing is done in a way to minimise any distress and suffering. To kill quickly and cleanly.
As for dairies, I’ve worked in some, and the animals are very well treated. Yes, unwanted calves are killed humanely. Most dairy farmers I know love their cows like their children.
Daphon, you seem to have some religious reason for being against the killing of animals (rather than a logical one) and I respect that. No offence to your belief was intended.
BTW, it is very hard to argue with vegans, I have tried on many occasions.
What seems to happen is they get angry that I eat meat and have well thought through reasons why I don’t have a problem with consuming ethically grown animals and dairy products.
Then I get called names or people just refuse to have a discussion. Not all Vegan’s and Vego’s but most seem to have a real chip on the shoulder about their choice and anyone who dares question it.
I am not trying to stop anyone from having what ever diet they wish, but if you want me to change, you need to make a rational argument as to why I and others should stop what is natural to our species.
As I said, I think we need to improve the way we treat animals. This is not a reason to not kill for food though.
Craigy,
My apologies if I offended, but all that business of the lions was kinda over the top for me.
I’m actually not a militant vegan and usually, like the old admonitions on religion, women and sex, I usually try to avoid the subject with friends unless they ask me a direct question or two which get diplomatic answers.
Anyway it’s so bloody hot here now and the next few days that I will only be eating cold, cold salads. Bugger cooking of any description!
Cheers.
“Ethically, no, as I don’t believe in killing.”
Killing is inevitable, unless you produce absolutely everything you consume yourself. Even then, you will be killing invertebrates constantly (wasn’t sure if you were including them).
The question is, how direct is the killing? Do you eat rice? Ever thought about how many vertebrates are killed during the growing and harvesting processes (frogs/waterbird chicks etc. in flooded rice fields)? What about if you replaced all the rice you eat in a year with one dead cow (meat enough for a year for one person)? Is it worse because the killing is more obvious to you? Or better, because you are actually responsible for taking less lives?
I’ve not met a vegan/vegetarian yet who can answer this question satisfactorily (and there are many more analogous ones). When it comes down to it, these decisions are often largely about aesthetics, and not ethics, and I say that as a vegetarian myself, and with two immediate family members who are very strict vegans.
“I know plenty of people with old and healthy dogs and cats which have been vegan since birth. That is something that is possible to do.”
Dogs, maybe, they are omnivores, cats are carnivores. Imo, it is very odd for a vegan to do something like this, as it is another form of inflicting human control upon animals, forcing them to restrict their diet in a way they would *never* choose, were they given a choice.
“And I believe dairies are as cruel… her milk production is not ‘optimum best practice’.”
If it’s about cruelty, not the killing itself, there are options other than mass produced meat or dairy.
If it’s about killing, and you want to minimise the amount of it you’re responsible for, I don’t think it’s as simple as not consuming animal products.
Not having a go, just bringing up some points. I firmly believe that minimising your impact/death toll cannot be done by making simple black and white rules about what you’ll eat or wear.
Thanks for pointing out that vindaloo must be made with pork, wilful. Actually, I’ve made them with beef for years and finally got around to a pork one recently and it was much better. The particular blend of spices is ideally suited to pork.
Craigy, I have no issue with anyone eating meat, and I should have been more clear.
When I said chicken had bugger all nutritional value, I should have been more specific. It has bugger all nutritional value that cannot be sourced elsewhere. It may be a good source of protein but so are mushrooms. Red meat is a different matter, but Pork, Lamb and Chicken are all eminently replaceable.
As for Free Range chicken, the problem is in determining what is free range and how it is assessed as such. There’s been plenty of evidence that the RSPCA’s inspections, though laudable, are flawed, and that they themselves may have conflicts of interest, given that there are chicken manufacturers on the Board of Directors at RSPCA. It’s actually incredibly hard to tell what “Free Range” constitutes, particularly in eggs.
Personally, I am not adhering to it as strictly as Jeremy is, simply because it’s more important for me to maintain iron levels. I’m not eating any chicken or pork, though.
I reject the idea that this is a “fad” we are following. It was the result of discussion between us, though we’re well aware that we don’t know everything about vegetarianism or the meat industries.
Having said that, I don’t see why eating less meat and being more careful about our food choices should be such an offensive thing to you.
Thanks Keri.
I think I made it clear that your choice is not at all offensive to me. Good on you for thinking about what you eat and it’s impact on you and the planet. I also made the comment that my partner of 27 years is a vego and always has been.
She was careful with her diet but had many health problems that have either improved or gone completely since including fish three times a week.
Your arguments about the shortcomings of the meat industry (including organic and free range) are not in dispute.
My point is why not work towards sustainable, ethical meat production by supporting those that are trying to do it that way, rather than just demanding that we all stop eating it, like some people are trying to say.
For you two it might not be a ‘fad’ but it sure is with many young people. It is my concern that many of these young vegans have no idea what they are doing, just eating rice and some vegies. It sure is ‘trendy’ at the uni I work at, and going by the handouts from them a few weeks back, it is becoming radical and a form of fundamentalism. Not good for something that should be based on science.
Absolutely not. I don’t think anyone should go into it without at the very least consulting their doctor – which we have – and we’ll be seeing a dietitian as well.
Keri, just on the comparison between chicken and mushrooms…..here are some facts for you from a great site called nutritiondata.com
Mushrooms cooked 100g
Protein – 2 g
Niacin (B3) – 4.5g
B6 – .1g
Iron – 10%
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2483/2
Chicken cooked (roasted) 100g
Protein – 31 g
Niacin (B3) – 13.7g
B6 – .6g
Iron – 6%
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/poultry-products/703/2
Mushrooms are not a substitute for chicken when it comes to protein, good iron though.
Chicken is much better for B3 and B6 (the woman’s vitamin).
A good meal would be chicken and mushroom, although you get all you need from the chicken.
The other thing is that 100g of mushrooms is a fair amount. With chicken we tend to eat 200g as a meal so you can double the good stuff!
Have you really looked into this enough to stop eating meat? Has Jeremy?
I think a dietition, yes, but from my experience with GPs and that of others on the various veg*n forums I belong to, GPs have almost negligible knowledge of nutrition particularly relating to veg*n diets.
And I think I’ll even qualify dietitian to those who have a real knowledge of non-meat and -dairy because many of them don’t.
The CSIRO diet book ( with funding from the Meat & Livestock Corp) is a good example.
http://perfidy.com.au/
Yes, funny one the CSIRO diet book, I think it was based on the Atkins diet of high protein and low carb and was another fad diet.
I posted this one last night but it didn’t appear so I here it is again.
I wish I didn’t at these small hours of the morning but I feel the need to add to the debate as there’s just too much bollocks slipping by here…
Firstly, Craigy claims to have “shown” that is natural for humans to eat meat. How he has shown this I have no idea, but the fact is humans don’t need meat at all. This is evidenced by the large numbers of healthy, indeed thriving, people who follow a vegan diet (ask Carl Lewis). Yes there are unhealthy vegans, just as there are (a far greater proportion of) unhealthy omnivores. Bad nutrition is bad nutrition. Then there is the structure of the human digestive system, which is tailor made for processing plant foods. Not to mention the correlation with increased incidence of bowel cancer (see a good book on the topic here: http://perfidy.com.au/).
Oh, and I know the meat industry loves telling everyone that the human brain evolved thanks to us eating meat but recent research has suggested that the correlation was more likely due to the development of increasingly complex skills necessary for successful hunting than the actual consumption of the meat. But seriously, if eating meat was all it took to get to the top of the food chain I think we’d have a bit more competition.
I know there are some cases where humans have no choice but to eat meat if they are to survive, but these are exceedingly rare and don’t really exist in “developed” countries. So the decision to eat meat in Australia, apart from the cultural expectation, is based purely on taste/pleasure.
Next, I see a claim from you Craigy that killing animals for food is in most cases done in a way that does not cause suffering. The important point I want to make here is that the actual ending of an animals life is usually (in the case of chickens and pigs in particular) only one shameful footnote on a life of abject suffering from start to finish.
I’d like to know what makes you so sure that most killing is indeed without suffering? Even if we were to imagine, for arguments sake, that only 1 in every 5000 cows had their trachea removed while still conscious and only 1 in every 1000 chickens is boiled alive, that still adds up to many thousands of animals suffering the cruelest of deaths each year in Australia alone.
Now on to that little chestnut about the lion. I don’t know if the other responses answered that question well enough for you but I’ll give you my version anyway…
Some animals eat plants, some animals eat other animals. They do it because they must, they have no other choice, they evolved to do so and the balance and function of the ecology depends on it. Humans however do have a choice. We no longer have to eat meat to survive, all our needs are taken care of. We don’t have to kill to eat. While a lion may kill and use violence on a victim to eat, he may also force rape onto other lions, also in order for his species to survive. Just because a particular animal behaves in a certain way, doesn’t mean we have to do it too. A lion kills and sometimes rapes, but we do not draw our moral conclusions from observing what other animals do. We do not justify killing other animals for food, or raping to procreate just because some other animals do it. We draw our own moral conclusions by thinking logically about it.
As for your zoo scenario there is a very simple answer. Lions should not be kept in zoos, which are opposed as another form of exploitation by most vegans (why? see here for a start: http://www.peta.org/MC/factsheet_display.asp?ID=67).
This leads to the remark someone made about it being unnatural to feed a dog a vegan diet. When I first became a vegetarian (now vegan) this was a question I grappled with for a long time….then I learnt what goes in to dog food. Let me tell you, there is NOTHING natural about dog food!…Rendered roadkill, euthanised strays, putrefaction masking chemicals. I’ve since concluded that if I was to feed a dog a nutritionally correct and tasty vegan diet than there can be no ethical problem with that.
continued…
I have to admit I have done no research at all on vegan farming practices, however I do want to say that I think we can be pretty sure that very little effort (relatively) has been made to develop alternatives to animal dependant farming. I think it is important to remember that a symbiotic relationship between animals and humans in this context is possible (without their eventual slaughter).
On your question regarding animals killed indirectly Dentarthurdent, I’d like to direct you to an interesting article here: http://www.veganoutreach.org/enewsletter/matheny.html
I also make the observation that with so many of the crops we produce ending up as feed for livestock perhaps omnivores are responsible for both the direct and indirect killing.
Lynda Hopgood: Have you heard of the movie Earthlings? It’s sure to get you thinking (thinking is good by the way). You can see it here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142#
Keri: There’s some great info on iron and vegan diets, along with a lot of other good stuff here: http://veganhealth.org/articles/iron/
Did I miss anyone?…oh yeah, congratulations on sticking with it Jeremy!
@Daphon “And I believe dairies are as cruel, maybe even crueler, than livestock breeding for meat. I think most people only think of Daisy the cow and not her male calves or what happens when her milk production is not ‘optimum best practice’.”
I respect your statement here. My beef, excuse the terrible pun, with some vegans is that they’re just as crazy as any fervent religious nutter.
I was once told by one that cows were being raped when being milked. When I pointed out that victims of sexual assault (as in actual human beings) might not find this an appropriate expression this vegan, somewhat ironically a woman, went on to repeatedly say I supported murder and rape and thought it totally appropriate to use such extreme language.
That is what pisses me off with veganism – the extremists are just as loony as the religious right, maybe even more so.
@Arlen “Lions should not be kept in zoos, which are opposed as another form of exploitation by most vegans”
If that is the case then it’s sad. Zoos are pretty much the last bastion for some species survival. I by no means think they’re perfect nor necessarily appropriate. But given the choice of extinction or survival through breeding programs I choose life.
Yes, in some utopia all animals would be surviving as we wouldn’t be destroying the environment etc. Unfortunately we live in reality, and without zoos some species would’ve disappeared forever – we’re already losing enough animals every day, without some ideology claiming more of them.
Rant over.
I think that well managed conservation parks serve that purpose far better than zoos. The vast majority of zoos are profit making enterprises and if they keep lions it is for no reason other than that it attracts paying customers.
Arlen, you have completely misrepresented what I have been saying. It would be nice if you actually read my comments before launching into your spin.
1. My point about the Lions was that they kill their prey in a way that causes it great pain and suffering. Lions only exist in parks controlled by humans, so why are you not calling for Lions killing other animals to be stopped? Lions don’t have to kill in this way if we kill their food for them for them in a nice way. This is the problem with the ‘humans have a choice’ argument, we have the power to stop lots of things but because they are natural we choose to let it go on.
2. Your argument that ‘humans shouldn’t eat meat’ is based on nothing more than your feelings about killing for food. Humans are omnivores and therefore it is natural for us to eat meat. You can spin it and say we should choose to go against what is natural for our species and bring up all the health issues to do with over consumption of fats, but these are not logically good reasons for everyone to stop eating meat. As I have said, I don’t like any cruel practices and buy my meat only from Organic growers. While some Organic farmers still don’t do everything well, I prefer to support them and encourage them to do better rather than labelling them as bad and trying to shut down meat production.
3. Your admission that you know nothing about Organic farming is telling. Your comments about it being easy to follow a vegan diet are also showing that you may have other reasons for pushing your vegan bandwagon.
If your going to go down the path of trying to get enough nutrition from a vegan diet and you expect everyone else to believe your views, you need to visit or work in food production or farming, go to an abattoir and read about nutrition on a site based on science not vegan fundamentalism.
As some have suggested you should also see a doctor or dietician before attempting a vegan diet or you can get very un-well very quickly. They will also give you good advice on the amount and type of meat to eat to avoid the problems you have mentioned. I agree that there is evidence that too much red meat can increase your risk of many things, but fish is the exact opposite and lean chicken is very good for you. I have shown this above, in the comparison with mushrooms, which are often put up as an alternative to chicken. It is difficult to get the same levels of nutrition from eating vegies alone. Vegies have lots of carbs, which probably explains why there are many overweight vego’s and eating too much carbs can contribute to diabetes. Many vego’s eat too many carbs to make up for the ‘empty’ feeling they get from a salad or fruit meal. This is something I know, I have lived with a vego for 27 years.
Another question for you: Should Aboriginal Australians, living on traditional land, be stopped from hunting Roo meat or killing Turtles and Fish?
I don’t expect that you think meat can be a sustainable and healthy part of our diet, but it can and we don’t do as badly as you think at providing that right now.
Jeremy, why are my comments being moderated?
Oh it might be the length….sorry ’bout that, but I have to repeat myself for those that can’t read.
“Then there is the structure of the human digestive system, which is tailor made for processing plant foods.”
Really Arlen?
I had no dea humans were ruminants.
“I have to admit I have done no research at all on vegan farming practices..”
Unfortunately you are not alone among vegans Arlen. Not understanduing how food is produced, and how soil fertility and structure is maintained, seems to be a common thread in veganism.
I have attempted to debate vegan farming with several vegans who post here, on more than one occasion, and am yet (to my knowledge) to have a single response to any of my questions or comments regarding vegan agriculture and its “sustainable, eco friendly” nature.
“..however I do want to say that I think we can be pretty sure that very little effort (relatively) has been made to develop alternatives to animal dependant farming.”
Why though? Plenty of thought has been given to how to grow food sustainably by organic farmers, by permaculturalists, by agricultural scientists.
Plenty of vegi fueled thought has gone into protesting, plenty more has gone into informing everyone how much more sustainable and healthy veganism is when compared to any other diet, and plenty of effort has gone into damaging Australia’s agricultural export market.
Why is not the same effort being put into working out how to grow vegan food in a sustainable way, especially as vegan farming refuses to allow natural nutrient cycling and refuses to acknowledge the vital role animals play in maintaining healthy, fertile soil?
Thoughts for the day…
Why is using bee’s to pollenate crops and provide honey unethical, but spraying pesticide to control crop pests (killing many wild bees’ in the process) is considered ethical by vegan farmers?
Why is it that using water soluable NPK to grow vegetables and cereals is ethical, despite nutrient runoff causing algal blooms that pollute the rivers and kill thousands of fish and other animals every year, but simply killing and eating those same fish or animals is immoral?
“That is what pisses me off with veganism – the extremists are just as loony as the religious right, maybe even more so.”
Amen Brother.
well you don’t have to be a ruminant to be a herbivore for starters. There’s a pretty good article on the topic here: http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html
Duncan I think you have raised an important question for me to investigate further but let me ask you, how many people have you met (who are not farmers/food producers) that actually have an intimate knowledge of soil fertility and land management? I’m willing to bet it’s very few, vegan or otherwise.
I decided to abstain from animal products as much as possible purely for the ethical reasons related to the cruel exploitation common to much of the industry. Making this decision didn’t suddenly instil me with all the relevant knowledge, I’ve had to slowly work at it.
I’ll say again, I see no reason why a symbiotic relationship can’t be utilised. It’s not like we’ve always had these vast quantities of meat by-products.
Where do you get your bonemeal etc anyway? If you run a sustainable operation does that mean that you are crushing it up yourself? You wouldn’t want to be dependant on the by-products of unsustainable farming practices either would you?
You make some claims there about what is and isn’t considered ethical by vegan farmers but I am doubtful that they accurately reflect the majority of vegan farmers. I don’t know obviously, but they sure looks like some pretty baseless generalisations made to support your argument. Personally, I see no problem in using bees ethically (or hopefully inducing them to come by running a nice ecologically balanced farm), and I certainly do see a problem with utilising fertilisers that kill animals and damage the environment.
I really think that trying to equate veganism with fundamentalist religion is just an attempt to avoid open minded discussion. I find it quite offensive actually, especially as most vegans I know made their decision based on thorough research of farm practices and the alternatives. I know that some vegans aren’t great at articulating their reasons but not everyone is. Many more, like me, are happy to have a frank discussion about it.
I agree that the example Aussie Unionist gives is pretty ridiculous but she doesn’t represent me any more than Ronald McDonald represents you.
I will re-post and see if it works this time.
Arlen, you have completely misrepresented what I have been saying. It would be nice if you actually read my comments before launching into your spin.
1. My point about the Lions was that they kill their prey in a way that causes it great pain and suffering. Lions only exist in parks controlled by humans, so why are you not calling for Lions killing other animals to be stopped? Lions don’t have to kill in this way if we kill their food for them for them in a nice way. This is the problem with the ‘humans have a choice’ argument, we have the power to stop lots of things but because they are natural we choose to let it go on.
2. Your argument that ‘humans shouldn’t eat meat’ is based on nothing more than your feelings about killing for food. Humans are omnivores and therefore it is natural for us to eat meat. You can spin it and say we should choose to go against what is natural for our species and bring up all the health issues to do with over consumption of fats, but these are not logically good reasons for everyone to stop eating meat. As I have said, I don’t like any cruel practices and buy my meat only from Organic growers. While some Organic farmers still don’t do everything well, I prefer to support them and encourage them to do better rather than labelling them as bad and trying to shut down meat production.
3. Your admission that you know nothing about Organic farming is telling. Your comments about it being easy to follow a vegan diet are also showing that you may have other reasons for pushing your vegan bandwagon.
If your going to go down the path of trying to get enough nutrition from a vegan diet and you expect everyone else to believe your views, you need to visit or work in food production or farming, go to an abattoir and read about nutrition on a site based on science not vegan fundamentalism.
As some have suggested you should also see a doctor or dietician before attempting a vegan diet or you can get very un-well very quickly. They will also give you good advice on the amount and type of meat to eat to avoid the problems you have mentioned. I agree that there is evidence that too much red meat can increase your risk of many things, but fish is the exact opposite and lean chicken is very good for you. I have shown this above, in the comparison with mushrooms, which are often put up as an alternative to chicken. It is difficult to get the same levels of nutrition from eating vegies alone. Vegies have lots of carbs, which probably explains why there are many overweight vego’s and eating too much carbs can contribute to diabetes. Many vego’s eat too many carbs to make up for the ‘empty’ feeling they get from a salad or fruit meal. This is something I know, I have lived with a vego for 27 years.
Another question for you: Should Aboriginal Australians, living on traditional land, be stopped from hunting Roo meat or killing Turtles and Fish?
I don’t expect that you think meat can be a sustainable and healthy part of our diet, but it can and we don’t do as badly as you think at providing that right now.
No.
Sorry Arlen, I have a long post dealing with your misrepresentation of my comments, but it is being blocked. You will have to come back later when Jeremy gets round to letting it through.
Not sure why it is going to moderation it isn’t offensive or rude.
yeah it wasn’t working for me either until I posted it in halves.
Don’t really see how I’ve misrepresented anything you’ve said though. Refuted yes, but not misrepresented.
Mister z that is a great idea.
Arlen, you have completely misrepresented what I have been saying. It would be nice if you actually read my comments before launching into your spin.
1. My point about the Lions was that they kill their prey in a way that causes it great pain and suffering. Lions only exist in parks controlled by humans, so why are you not calling for Lions killing other animals to be stopped? Lions don’t have to kill in this way if we kill their food for them for them in a nice way. This is the problem with the ‘humans have a choice’ argument, we have the power to stop lots of things but because they are natural we choose to let it go on.
2. Your argument that ‘humans shouldn’t eat meat’ is based on nothing more than your feelings about killing for food. Humans are omnivores and therefore it is natural for us to eat meat. You can spin it and say we should choose to go against what is natural for our species and bring up all the health issues to do with over consumption of fats, but these are not logically good reasons for everyone to stop eating meat. As I have said, I don’t like any cruel practices and buy my meat only from Organic growers. While some Organic farmers still don’t do everything well, I prefer to support them and encourage them to do better rather than labelling them as bad and trying to shut down meat production.
Part 2
3. Your admission that you know nothing about Organic farming is telling. Your comments about it being easy to follow a vegan diet are also showing that you may have other reasons for pushing your vegan bandwagon.
If your going to go down the path of trying to get enough nutrition from a vegan diet and you expect everyone else to believe your views, you need to visit or work in food production or farming, go to an abattoir and read about nutrition on a site based on science not vegan fundamentalism.
As some have suggested you should also see a doctor or dietician before attempting a vegan diet or you can get very un-well very quickly. They will also give you good advice on the amount and type of meat to eat to avoid the problems you have mentioned. I agree that there is evidence that too much red meat can increase your risk of many things, but fish is the exact opposite and lean chicken is very good for you. I have shown this above, in the comparison with mushrooms, which are often put up as an alternative to chicken. It is difficult to get the same levels of nutrition from eating vegies alone. Vegies have lots of carbs, which probably explains why there are many overweight vego’s and eating too much carbs can contribute to diabetes. Many vego’s eat too many carbs to make up for the ‘empty’ feeling they get from a salad or fruit meal. This is something I know, I have lived with a vego for 27 years.
Another question for you: Should Aboriginal Australians, living on traditional land, be stopped from hunting Roo meat or killing Turtles and Fish?
I don’t expect that you think meat can be a sustainable and healthy part of our diet, but it can and we don’t do as badly as you think at providing that right now.
Part 2
3. Your admission that you know nothing about Organic farming is telling. Your comments about it being easy to follow a vegan diet are also showing that you may have other reasons for pushing your vegan bandwagon.
If your going to go down the path of trying to get enough nutrition from a vegan diet and you expect everyone else to believe your views, you need to visit or work in food production or farming, go to an abattoir and read about nutrition on a site based on science not vegan fundamentalism.
As some have suggested you should also see a doctor or dietician before attempting a vegan diet or you can get very un-well very quickly. They will also give you good advice on the amount and type of meat to eat to avoid the problems you have mentioned. I agree that there is evidence that too much red meat can increase your risk of many things, but fish is the exact opposite and lean chicken is very good for you. I have shown this above, in the comparison with mushrooms, which are often put up as an alternative to chicken. It is difficult to get the same levels of nutrition from eating vegies alone. Vegies have lots of carbs, which probably explains why there are many overweight vego’s and eating too much carbs can contribute to diabetes. Many vego’s eat too many carbs to make up for the ‘empty’ feeling they get from a salad or fruit meal. This is something I know, I have lived with a vego for 27 years.
Part 3
Another question for you: Should Aboriginal Australians, living on traditional land, be stopped from hunting Roo meat or killing Turtles and Fish?
I don’t expect that you think meat can be a sustainable and healthy part of our diet, but it can and we don’t do as badly as you think at providing that right now.
Part 3
Another question for you: Should Aboriginal Australians, living on traditional land, be stopped from hunting Roo meat or killing Turtles and Fish?
Jeremy, can you delete all the stuff awaiting moderation.
I got most of it posted by chopping it up. For some reason, the last bit didn’t get past the filter.
Pain in the arse Jeremy.
I hope your enjoying Sydney…..
Firstly Arlen, id like to apologise for coming across a bit stroppy in my first post to you. Wrong side of the bed, is suspect.
I also want to thank you for responding to the questions that myself and others have put to you. Its a breath of fresh air to get a straight answer for a change!
“You make some claims there about what is and isn’t considered ethical by vegan farmers but I am doubtful that they accurately reflect the majority of vegan farmers.”
The majority of vegans eat conventionally grown produce in Australia, as Vegan farming and Vegan organic farming is still a tiny niche market, so the environmental issues/impacts that confront any person, vego or carnivore, are relevent.
The fact also remains that even “Vegan Organic” farmers use various organic pesticides. This use of pesticide is of course vital in any farming enteprise, but is counter to the idea of not killing for food.
“..how many people have you met (who are not farmers/food producers) that actually have an intimate knowledge of soil fertility and land management? I’m willing to bet it’s very few, vegan or otherwise.”
That’s a good point Arlen. Most people don’t know much about the way their food is produced, but equally most people also don’t make assertions/claims about the sustainability or enviro credentials of their lifestyle in comparison to others.
To make comparison or comment on the sustainable nature or health benefits of veganism surely one must have a good understanding of nutrition and farming?
Continued…
“Where do you get your bonemeal etc anyway? If you run a sustainable operation does that mean that you are crushing it up yourself? You wouldn’t want to be dependant on the by-products of unsustainable farming practices either would you?”
I don’t entirely run my property on organic principles, to my mind the health of the land and animals is more important than dogmatically following any one method.
We use pelletised manure and seaweed on our pasture currently Arlen, but once we have the soil fertility and structure repaired we hope to maintain fertility through soil innoculants, rock dust and seaweed. No doubt we will still need to use some additional pelletised manure.
Also, we have a large number of freerange poultry on our pastures, who do a great job turning weed seeds and pests into fertiliser. We also use a lot of pig manure and straw on our orchards.
I am in no way suggesting that the way i run my property is perfect, or zero impact. My claims regarding permaculture and organic farming were not meant to imply this. I was simply trying to make (in response to Daphon, actually) the point that veganism and vegan farming are not by their nature more sustainable or environmentally sensitive than many other ways of producing food.
“I really think that trying to equate veganism with fundamentalist religion is just an attempt to avoid open minded discussion. ”
I think it is an entirely fair point to make about SOME vegans, although obviously not yourself. My comment to Aussie unionist “Amen Brother” was meant to be amusing , not offensive.
Sorry if you feel it was out of line.
I’m sorry Craigy but there is just no comparison between the predator-prey relationship in a natural ecosystem and the unnecessary human exploitation of animals profit. Your last sentence in that paragraph is entirely correct. It is natural and to interfere (if it was even possible) would impact the whole ecosystem in ways we surely couldn’t predict. It comes across as a pretty absurd and desperate argument really.
My argument that humans have no need for meat is actually based on a lot of research and now personal experience. You like to make statements such as “humans are omnivores” but I’m yet to see you provide any evidence for this. Saying it doesn’t make it true. Did you look at this link: http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html ? What do you think about it? And I do commend you for making the effort to buy more ethically produced meat. If everyone did this the world would be a much better place.
So it is telling that a young guy from suburban Adelaide isn’t an expert on organic farming? How so? I’m curious what other reasons you imagine might be driving me besides my disgust at gross cruelty in the name of profit?
I don’t think your last couple paragraphs make a lot of sense to be honest. How is going to an abattoir going to teach me anything about nutrition? I am more than happy to take nutritional advice from people like carl lewis (http://www.earthsave.org/lifestyle/carllewis.htm). You really just show here that you haven’t bothered to do any research into it yourself.
Sheesh…Arlen, you still have not understood my argument about Lions, I am not comparing Lions to Humans, I am comparing the way we allow Lions to behave. Lions can’t roam freely any more, they live in parks and zoo’s and WE can control how they kill and what they eat. They are not part of natural ecosystems and feeding them from meat that is killed ethically IS possible. Why are the Vego lobby not attacking the way we allow them to kill, if you are so worried about cruelty? Or is it only cruelty that YOU define as such.
As for your links to non-scientific, fundamentalist web sites to prove your point, it’s laughable. Also your appeal to authority by quoting Carl Lewis…..as I remember he could run fast but I didn’t know he had a medical degree and had studied human evolution, again laughable.
The claim that meat has not been part of out diet and the evolution of our species is not backed up by any credible science….its flat earth, creationism type of opinion.
You really do owe it to yourself to read more widely, especially from reputable science based information not stuff written by revisionists.
As for why you defend something you know very little about, clearly with ideological blinkers on, well this is a mystery to me. Perhaps you could explain what made you realise that ALL meat eating is evil.
I suggest a visit to a well run meat processing plant to see that it isn’t as ‘evil’ as you suggest. If you visit a well run farm, you will find that most farmers are the true friends of their animals and care for them very well, with lots of hard work involved. Something those in their armchairs, who buy their food from the shop and never have contact with the growing of anything, just would not understand.
No wonder I’m a vegan and have an intense dislike of religion (any kind!):
“Priests are preparing for the slaughter of more than 15,000 buffaloes and 300,000 birds, goats and sheep during the event, which starts on Tuesday and is thought to be the biggest ritual sacrifice anywhere in the world.”
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/thousands-flock-to-village-for-sacrifice-of-300000-animals-20091124-jd5y.html
I’m starting to think you’re not capable of rational debate Craigy. You still haven’t actually provided one shred of factual information to support your claims. Do you dispute the factual basis of the information on that site? If so, how? I’m afraid that you label it non-scientific and fundamentalist purely because you find its conclusions inconvenient.
My point regarding Carl Lewis is that regardless of what the mainstream might say, he demonstrates (along with many others) that a diet free of animal foods can be as good if not better. Should it matter to one of the worlds greatest athletes if a nutritionist tells him he needs to eat meat when he has seen for himself that he performs better without it?
Your absurd fixation on the lion truly shows that you do not understand the basic premise of veganism and most animal liberation groups. Animals are not ours. They do not exist for our benefit and we do not “allow” them to do anything. Interfering with what is natural predator-prey relationship goes completely against this philosophy.
I’ve never said that I think all meat eating is evil. I acknowledge that in some cases it is necessary. I don’t think we should stop anyone eating meat by force or law, my contention is only that for the vast majority of people it is not necessary. Despite what you might imagine I only want to encourage people to inform themselves and make their own decision. If there are some misconceptions I’m only too happy to correct them (though it can be time consuming). Myself and many others I know are testament to what a little more knowledge on the topic can do.
I agree Daphon, nutty stuff….I hope they have a good Barbie and don’t waste any of the meat.
Unfortunately I doubt these animals will be treated or killed in the best way possible so I don’t support it.
With the limited land available in India for food production, and the large amount of protein available from eating live stock, it does make sense if they eat their kill.
It’s nutty though, to kill as a ritual sacrifice to your magical friend in the sky.
Hi Duncan. Thanks for the apology. I’m not sure it was warranted but I appreciate it. I’ll have a proper look at your posts shortly.
Sorry Arlen, I have read your link to your fundamentalist vegan site again and it’s still rubbish.
The claim that “humans are optimized for eating plant foods, and not meat” is refuted at this site.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/674/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature
What you should be reading if you want scientific, referenced information is this, which shows just how the sites you quote are based on nothing more than ideology.
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPNS%2FPNS65_01%2FS0029665106000012a.pdf&code=04a86cbb293748cd6dc05fe2f918880a
You really do need to read more and not be so one eyed, as I said earlier.
As for Carl, well I am sure he had the best scientific and medical advice money could buy….so it would have been fine for him to try consuming an un-natural diet.
As for a youngster from SA…. I would say be very careful and read a lot more before you make yourself look even more fundie.
Sorry guys, forgot all about this invigorating discussion in the haze of end of uni celebrations. Wouldn’t want to let Craigy get the last word in…
That Straight Dope link is good and I thank you for showing it too me but I don’t think it says what you think it says. Its main point seems to be that humans have a digestive system capable of digesting meat…I don’t think that is news to anybody. It also says that humans don’t need to eat meat and that people would be better off eating less. But nonetheless I thank you for clearing that up for me.
Unfortunately the second link doesn’t work, but I really think you need to take some of your own advice and stop being so dogmatic Craigy. I think I’ve shown that I’m not ‘fundie’ in my approach at all, the only one throwing insults and making baseless statements is you.