Indiscriminately SPECTACULAR!

Sure, this sounds pretty terrible:

Human Rights Watch says Israeli forces might be guilty of war crimes over what it says was the indiscriminate use of white phosphorous shells during the conflict in the Gaza Strip.

But look at the picture!

r353858_1625207
(via Reuters)

Why’s it a war crime to provide the Palestinians with awesome fireworks displays? Wah wah “when the white phosphorous artillery explodes in mid-air it covers an area of approximately 250 metres in diameter” and “when it touches skin it will burn all the way to the bone”. But it looks so pretty!

Honestly, can’t they be grateful for anything?

Advertisements

168 responses to “Indiscriminately SPECTACULAR!

  1. it is pretty…

    pretty terrible that is…

    a war crime is a war crime, no matter which side commits it.

  2. Returned Man

    – But they fired first
    – Israelis are only protecting themselves against terrorism
    – Jews were there first thousands of years ago
    – Our army is an honourable armed forces
    – Why can’t the other Arab countries accommodate them
    – Homeland, Holocaust, etc etc

    Any other mantras?

  3. Returned Man

    Any more of this and I’ll start to sound like Phillip Travers.

  4. philiptravers

    Any more of this and I will be D.I.!? The unknown DI covered this the day after the Israelis practised not seeing what their lefthand was doing whilst its righthand did something else.If not the day after within a few days.

  5. It’s pin-point accuracy, smart laser-guided phosphorous. “Kills terrorists dead, gentle on babies(tm)”

    If it does burn babies, they were going to grow up into terrorists. Yes, it’s that smart it can see into the future.

  6. Typical. Prejudicial effect is much greater than the probative value.

    As shown by the comments above, this is great for whipping up the braying masses, but does little for reasoned discussion. Alan Jones would be proud of you.

  7. I visited the HRW site and hoped to see what it had to say about the indiscriminate firing of rockets into civilian areas of Israel.

    Here’s what it had to say:

  8. You mean rockets being fired into the areas they used to live in?

  9. karl:

    You mean rockets being fired into the areas they used to live in?

    Do you think that people don’t still live in Sderot, Ashkelon and Beersheba, or that they are not people?

  10. Well Josh, instead of hoping to see something about Hamas rockets on the HRW site, you would have done much better to open your eyes and actually look.

    By so doing, you might have found this or this or this or this humdinger of a report.

    Off you go, Josh.
    Close your eyes and keep pretending that nothing’s happening.

    Cheers.

  11. ahhh, SB still trying to defend the indefensible, and he has some new friends to help too, how nice for SB.

    Wow, look at all the “terrorists” the IDF stopped from destroying Israel.

    http://na.mo.free.fr/gaza2008/indexu.php

  12. Thanks for those links Marek.

  13. Thanks MB. Such a position of prominence too. They threaten to bump the Israel story off the front page. Can’t wait for Jeremy to give it the treatment. Maybe “Rocket Fire Threatens Peace”.

  14. Jeremy’s been reading Bolt/Blair for so long this blog is starting to resemble theirs.

    Step One: Make a one-sided inflammatory post.

    Step Two: Sit back and wait for the freaks to come out.

    Step Three: EvShow appears.

    And there we have it – Pure Poison!

  15. Yes, like i’m going to take the bait again and waste my time debating with you SB, i’ll save that for people with a semblence of a soul.
    Did you even look at the link? I bet you don’t have the guts you fucking coward.

    I have a question though, do you believe that their are “Palestinians”?

  16. EvShow, you are an endearingly deluded tool. Do you want to turn this into a competition as to who can produce the most grotesque pics, or do you want to deal with the issues and ask why Hamas provoked Israel with thousands of rockets and then used its own civilians as human shields?

    Here’s some advice:

    Your head’s stuck in your behind.
    This makes you stupid and blind.
    To end this farce,
    Lob a grenade up your arse
    And truly blow your mind!

  17. I visited the HRW site and hoped to see what it had to say about the indiscriminate firing of rockets into civilian areas of Israel.

    Here’s what it had to say:

    You lied, Josh. Well done.

  18. At the time of the Gaza conflict the international Red Cross said that Israel’s use of white phosphorus had not breached international law, I think I’ll wait for the results of the independent investigations before accusing anyone of war-crimes.

    http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=42290

    We do know for a fact though that HAMAS used human shields, their own leader publicly boasted about it, so why isn’t the “neutral” HRW calling for them to be charged with war-crimes ?

    This is a telling quote from one of your links Jeremy :

    “The UN also cited alleged abuses by Hamas, the Islamist movement that rules Gaza. Ms Coomaraswamy said that the group had been unwilling to investigate the charges made.”

    I’m wondering why this supposedly unbiased UN group of ‘human rights experts’ is so eager to investigate alleged Israeli abuses, but unwilling to do the same with Hamas, I’d hope you would wonder the same thing.

    Oh yes, and those T-shirts — a few hundred shirts printed up by a few graduate soldiers without the permission or knowledge of either the Israeli government nor the higher echelons of the IDF, not condoned by either, and who have said anyone found to be wearing those shirts would be punished.

    You do realise there are over half a million personnel in the IDF ? Who’d have thought that there might be a fraction of a percentage of extremists, or just plain young fools amongst that many people ?

    Still we wouldn’t want to tarnish a whole group of people because of the actions of a few radicals now would we …. Hang on, where have I heard that before ?

  19. Gavin:

    I’m wondering why this supposedly unbiased UN group of ‘human rights experts’ is so eager to investigate alleged Israeli abuses, but unwilling to do the same with Hamas, I’d hope you would wonder the same thing.

    The UN Human Rights Council is a hideously biased organisation. It is currently attacking free speech by seeking to outlaw criticism of islam. This Orwellian organisation has been colonised by OIC members. It says it proceeds by way of consensus. Apparently the only thing the majority can all agree on is bashing Israel. The Council has banned discussion of human rights abuses under sharia law.

    You might think this loathsome organisation might draw some criticism from the left. Don’t hold your breath.

  20. It was all a big mistake! They didn’t MEAN to load WP shells into their field pieces . Any homicidal Israeli artillery crew could have done the same.

  21. philiptravers

    Off subject, sorry Jeremy! But the Sun in dear old England with the dear old Dad of thirteen years of age having a DNA test and found not to be Dad is similar to the denial that Semitic as a word has a closer approximation in meaning to Palestinians than it does the many of the place called Israel!?

  22. Josh.
    HRW is not a newspaper.
    As such, they don’t have a frontpage within which different stories compete for the attention of its readers.

    Having said that, their new-look website is a bit “tabloidish” for my tastes and I agree with your concerns in as much as the new format infers a ‘breaking news’ approach to their content.

    Nevertheless, HRW has consistently highlighted the issue of Hamas rockets into Israel, as I have demonstrated above.
    No serious reader of HRW’s work would claim that they are ignoring Hamas aggression, as you have tried to infer above.

    I should also state that I don’t accept everything that HRW tells me and nor should anybody else.
    Their different bureaus tend to have different agendas and biases which shows up in their reports.

    For example, I have been very disappointed in their reporting on Latin American issues and found myself furious with their inept and disingenuous representation of Saakashvili’s aggressive foray into the Georgian province of South Ossetia.

    Notwithstanding, my caution when appraising reports from HRW, and other NGO’s for that matter, only a fool would deny Israel’s use of White Phosphorus and only a truly evil person would try to justify its use.

    Over to you SB.

  23. GavinM, if you go to the source you will find that Peter Herby, head of the ICRC’s Arms Unit actually said:

    We have not commented publicly on the legality of the current use of phosphorous weapons by Israel, contrary to what has been attributed to us in recent media reports.

  24. GavinM. We meet again!

    You offered us an informative and credible link highlighting how a second party interpreted the ICRC stance on the use of white phosphorus in Israel. Thank you for that.

    However, I have a few questions.

    Why the second hand account when you have gone straight to the source?
    Also, why the second hand account when the source offered a more recent and more comprehensive account of their position?

    From the source;

    The use of air-dropped incendiary weapons against military objectives within a concentration of civilians is simply prohibited.

    The above quote is from Peter Herby, head of the ICRC’s Arms Unit.

    I invite you to read the article here, though I must warn you that Mr. Herby may use language that could be construed as a being critical of Israel and, as such, is obviously an outrageous anti-Semetic slur and proves that he should be sacked!

    Cheers

  25. Damn you ZOOT!!!

  26. I haven’t really followed this discussion, but I do rather like EvShow’s description of SB as a man without the semblance of a soul. Quite neat really.

  27. MB – great minds think alike 🙂

  28. The Red Cross will not admit the Magen David Adom organisation because it will not adopt the Red Cross symbol, preferring a red Star of David instead. Naturally an exception was made for the Red Crescent.

    This is quite consistent with its activities in World War II, reporting all was well in Nazi concentration camps and its corrupt involvement. It was no surprise to see the Red Cross up to its neck in the Lebanese ambulance hoax in the 2006 Lebanon war.

    The Red Cross is not a credible organisation when it comes to Israel.

  29. Wrong as usual SB. Magen David Adom is a member of the IF of Red Cross and Red Cresent Societies.

    Naturally, you don’t know this because it doesn’t fit with your prejudices. So much better to ignore reality and whine stupidly about how terrible the Red Cross is.

    SB is not a credible indivudual when it comes to the Red Cross (or the I/P conflict for that matter).

  30. Michael:

    Wrong as usual SB. Magen David Adom is a member of the IF of Red Cross and Red Cresent Societies.

    You are right on this point Michael. In June 2006 MDA was finally admitted after over 70 years of discrimination.

    I’ve been waiting years to hear even one word of criticism from you regarding the criminal Palestinian practice of targeting and murdering civilians.

    Come on, surprise me.

  31. SB, i thought dead civilains were an issue, I guess they aren’t really an issue if they aren’t white and you’re a racist, and it’s pretty obvious that you are.
    Anyway, as you acknowledged above, there are a people called Palestinians, now, in that Australians are from Australia, Egyptians are from Egypt, etc, etc, where are Palestinians from?

  32. Pardon the way that I stare
    There’s nothing else to compare
    The sight of you leaves me weak
    There are no words left to speak
    But if you feel like I feel
    Please let me know that it’s real
    You’re just too good to be true
    Can’t take my eyes off of you

  33. Oh, god, Beck – you’re still on about me?

    Had a look at that weird site of yours – you think it’s odd that I write critically of a prominent News Ltd columnist (and I’d be very curious as to how you got those numbers you don’t source), when you’ve SIX POSTS ABOUT ME – not a man published weekly in newspapers or broadcast on TV, not a household name, not an associate editor of a major metropolitan newspaper – on your current front page?

    If it’s sad for me to politically critique Bolt, a prominent media player, what the hell does your obsession about me say about you?

  34. I’ve been waiting years to hear even one word of criticism from you …” -SB

    I’m touched that you hang on my every word.

  35. EvShow:

    SB, i thought dead civilains were an issue, I guess they aren’t really an issue if they aren’t white and you’re a racist, and it’s pretty obvious that you are.

    The issue is the conduct of the parties. The Palestinians have a policy of murdering Jews. The way to get less dead civilians is to convince Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorists to stop the murder and to stop using their own people as human beings.

    Michael:

    I’m touched that you hang on my every word.

    Your posts are more lucid and logical than most. I enjoy the economy and balance of your writing. Your weakness is your tunnel vision and your inability to criticise the criminal tactics of the Palestinian terror groups.

  36. …human shields

  37. Your weakness is your tunnel vision

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

  38. Your weakness is your tunnel vision and your inability to criticise the criminal tactics of the Palestinian terror groups. “- SB

    This is about as accurate as your claim regarding the ICRC, but I couldn’t be bothered with the trawling required to demonstrate it.

    On the larger point, endlessly made by Israels supporters, the issue is that the occupation is the over-arching problem. Israel, exerting it’s control over 4 million civillians, every second of every day, purely by the threat and use of military force, denies the very self-determination to Palestinians that it stridently claims for itself. On the other hand, Palestintian resistance to occupation is a right not negated by the adoption of illegal tactics by various Palestinian groups.

    When (if) the oocupation is ended, and if Palestinians continued to target Israelis, the weight of my opprobium would fall against them.

  39. I completely agree with Michael. The issue is an occupation by Israel of Palestinian land, which continues to grow in the form of more settlements for Israelis on what was Palestinian land, more home demolitions, more water stealing, more daily humiliation, more power shortages and the right of people under occupation to resist. And when they do resist, the state terrorism they are bombarded with in an effort to break their resolve to continue restiting the occupation.

    The problem with Zionism and people like SB, is that they continue to deny that there is an occupation, despite all the evidence of such.
    Which to me affirms that they are complete racists, and generally not able to be reasoned with, much like the John Forsters of the world (that Israel incidently had no problems providing weapons to, but i’m sure is not really part of the official history of Israeli foriegn policy)

  40. Michael:

    On the other hand, Palestintian resistance to occupation is a right not negated by the adoption of illegal tactics by various Palestinian groups.

    So you think that murdering civilians is a “right” of the Palestinians?

  41. SB will it ever sink into your skull that the IDF “murders civilians” as well?
    Both sides in the conflict have committed atrocities; both sides are at fault. Your characterisation of Israel as a totally innocent party and the only one that has been wronged is delusional (to use a term you’re fond of) and it’s getting very tedious.

  42. Zoot just answer the question:

    Do you think that murdering civilians is a “right” of the Palestinians?

    Then I’ll deal with your putrid moral equivalence argument.

  43. Why don’t you answer my question SB, where are “Palestinians” from?

  44. SB: “The Palestinians have a policy of murdering Jews”
    Are you serious? the crap you come up withh is absolutely mystifying.
    The “Palestinians” are national group, not an organisation, therefore they don’t have “policies”.
    What they do have, being a national group, are certain rights, such as national self-determination, an absolute border that is not violated by their more powerful neighbour, the land that was stolen from them through a campaign of terror, and it’s the continued denial of these rights by the state of Israel that causes organisations such as Hamas to exist. Considering Hamas is a national liberation organisation, i would think the way to get rid of them, is to give the Palestinians national liberation. But SB it just doesn’t occur to you that they deserve this does it? I wonder why…

  45. Maybe it would help SB if Hamas changed their name to Haganah (or maybe Irgun)?

  46. Utterly hilarious. EvShow and zoot twisting in the wind, doing everything possible to avoid criticising the criminal Palestinian policy of murdering civilians.

    The Palestinian leadership have been implementing this criminal policy, with massive support from the population. When a Palestinian gunned down 8 students in a seminary his 84% of Palestinians said they supported his actions. When a Palestinian killed a four year old girl by smashing a rifle butt into her skull he was welcomed as a hero.

    Most people find this criminal policy of murdering Jews sickening. zoot and EvShow can’t bring themselves to condemn it. They should visit a Holocaust Museum sometime. Sadly it appears that the only reason they are ever likely to do so is for their own sexual gratification.

  47. SB, no amount of atrocities by Hamas will ever justify the behaviour of the IDF. The question of whether Hamas are nice guys or not is therefore utterly moot.

  48. THR, the question isn’t whether Hamas are nice guys, but whether you support their policy of murdering Jews whenever they are able.

  49. EvShow and zoot twisting in the wind, doing everything possible to avoid criticising the criminal Palestinian policy of murdering civilians.

    Oh FFS SB, is English your second language?
    If you take your head out of your arse long enough to look you’ll see that on 29 March at 7:29 pm there is a comment from me that criticises “both sides in the conflict”.
    Just to make it perfectly clear:
    I condemn the violence visited upon the Israelis by Hamas, just as I condemn the violence perpetrated on the Palestinians by the Israeli Defence Forces.
    No ifs or buts, they’re both in the wrong.
    Now, lets see your condemnation of the Israelis

  50. FWIW, I don’t support the murder of anyone. Hamas do not, in effect, have a policy of ‘murdering Jews’. The much-discussed charter is not adhered to by most of Hamas, and the main reason it hasn’t been scrapped is that the die-hards within Hamas like to keep it as a Judeophobic poke in the eye to Israel and the west.
    Secondly, as you know, Hamas is not to be identified with Palestinians, anymore than Australians ought to be identified with either Rudd or Howard.
    Fundamentally, one nation-state is oppressing a large group of people by military occupation the stealing of land, the expropriation of resources (the settlements in the West Bank have more water than the rest of the Palestinian territories combined), and daily humiliation and violence against ordinary Palestinians. Have a read of the Israeli press and you’ll note that Israelis themselves, even the hard-liners, do not dispute these basic facts.
    So the question of what form of Palestinian resistance is legitimate (raised by you in bad faith here) is fair enough. Conflating all resistance with anti-semitic murder is not.

  51. Ah SB, playing the victim card once again huh? And you’ll hold on to it for dear life, just like the Zionist movement, because as Jeff Halper so helpfully points out, once Zionists lose the victim card, their whole argument falls down.
    And SB objects to being shown the results of IDF terrorism but suggests people who disagree with him should visit a Holocaust Museum?
    Um, Hypocracy?
    Then SB claims a bunch of incidents took place and were supported by some percentage without any evidence of such.
    Well, lets stick to the facts shall we, Israel is occupying land that is not theres, the state of Israel continues to deny basic human rights to the Palestinian people en masse, and then when people try and fight for Palestinian rights, they are a “terrorist” or an anti semite.

  52. Ah SB, playing the victim card once again huh? And you’ll hold on to it for dear life, just like the Zionist movement, because as Jeff Halper so helpfully points out, once Zionists lose the victim card, their whole argument falls down.
    And SB objects to being shown the results of IDF terrorism but suggests people who disagree with him should visit a Holocaust Museum?
    Um, Hypocracy?
    Then SB claims a bunch of incidents took place and were supported by some percentage without any evidence of such to back up these claims.
    Well, lets stick to the facts shall we, Israel is occupying land that is not theres, the state of Israel continues to deny basic human rights to the Palestinian people en masse, and what this breeds, as it did in South Africa for example is restistance. I suppose that SB thought that Mandela should have been left to wallow in prison because he would not denounce armed struggle against Aparthied as well?

  53. God i fucking hate this new site!
    Also, i love how SB just announces things such as people twisting in the wind, just basically laying claim to victory because we wont be dragged into his pointless tit for tat pissing contests, whislt refusing to state whether he believes that a particlar nationality have the same rights and another, in this case, the Palestinians and the Zionists, which in failing to do so indicates once and again, that SB nothing more than a dopey old racist. And SB, as I would ignore a Klanner when they venture an opinion about blacks, you can and really should be ignored when venturing such nonsense about Palestinians and some in build tendency towards hatred and violence.

  54. And i agree with Zoot and THR, i dont condone Hamas attacking civilians, and it certainly isnt the way to liberate Palestinians either. The way the Hamas leadership cried victory from the safety of Syria etc the moment Israel withdrew, because Israel had “failed” in their stated mission to destroy all the rocket firing capabilities, despite the mass destuction visited upon the people Hamas claims to represent with pretty disgusting. But to condemn the average Palestian for joining at the ground level the ONLY organisation that stands up to their tormentors is a pretty dispicable thing to do as well.

  55. “God i fucking hate this new site!”

    It’s the same as the old one, only on standard WordPress instead of Blogger+Disqus.

  56. zoot:

    I condemn the violence visited upon the Israelis by Hamas

    Well done zoot.

    The main problems I have with the Israeli side are the continued establishment of illegal settlements, seemingly with government approval, and with the religious right generally.

    The Israelis do not have a policy of murdering civilians wherever they find them. There are extremist Israeli groups which have been banned under Israeli anti-terror legislation.

    On the Palestinian side the terror is not only approved by the government, but is carried out by the government. The Palestinians voted the most notorious terrorists into power. This is a significant difference between the two sides.

    The recent Gaza conflict was, as is usually the case with Israeli actions, a response to terrorism perpetrated against Jews. The main culprits were Hamas who, by using their civilians as human shields, were responsible for the civilian casualties, as well as being solely responsible for battle in the first place.

  57. Twisting in the wind, doing everything possible to avoid criticising …
    Yada, yada, yada …

  58. The main problems I have with the Israeli side are the continued establishment of illegal settlements, seemingly with government approval, and with the religious right generally.

    Careful SB, you’re on the slippery slope to admitting the Palestinians have a just cause.

  59. THR:

    So the question of what form of Palestinian resistance is legitimate (raised by you in bad faith here) is fair enough. Conflating all resistance with anti-semitic murder is not.

    THR it is you who conflate the two, proclaiming the right of Palestinians to “resistance” knowing full well that ‘resistance’ consists entirely of murdering Jews. I can’t say ‘murdering Israelis’ because the Palestinian terrorists don’t target Israeli Arabs, only Jews.

    Israel has been trying to trade land for peace since 1996. In 2005 it forcibly removed its citizens from Gaza as a goodwill gesture and got only more terrorism for its trouble.

    The Palestinians will never agree to a two state solution because, for theological reasons, they can’t allow Israel to exist as a Jewish state.

    EvShow:

    to condemn the average Palestian for joining at the ground level the ONLY organisation that stands up to their tormentors is a pretty dispicable thing to do as well.

    Please explain the circumstances where you think murdering civilians should not be condemned.

  60. The Israelis do not have a policy of murdering civilians wherever they find them.
    Nor does any government in the world. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, though.

    There are extremist Israeli groups which have been banned under Israeli anti-terror legislation.
    Yep, and plenty of others that still exist. Many of the West Bank settlers, whilst not comprising a proscribed group, come pretty close to straight-out fascism.

    The Palestinians voted the most notorious terrorists into power. This is a significant difference between the two sides.
    The gap between people and their representatives virtually everywhere is so great that the Palestinians cannot be meaningfully identified with Hamas. Also, it’s worth noting that Hamas were voted in for a number of reasons, most of which had nothing to do with Judeophobia.

    For a different perspective, this article in the Guardian is moving testimony to the fact that the oppression of the Palestinians is Israel’s tragedy also:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/07/comment

  61. SB, what exactly do you want the Palestinians to do???

  62. But as an occupation force it is we who trample over human dignity, it is we who crush the liberty of Palestinians and it is we who push an entire nation to crazy acts of despair.

    That’s pretty powerful stuff THR, thanks for the link.

  63. THR:

    Nor does any government in the world. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, though.

    Any government that systematically murders civilians has that policy – Hamas for example.

    EvShow:

    what exactly do you want the Palestinians to do???

    Two great opportunities for peace have been missed in the last decade.

    The first was Camp David/Taba where the parties were getting closer together and the Palestinians started the second intifada, ending the process.

    The second was in the aftermath of 9/11 when Bush became the first US president to explicitly state that the US policy was for there to be a Palestinian state. Sharon begged the US not to treat Israel like Czechoslovakia (a reference to that country being sold out to the Nazis). It came to nothing after another round of terrorist bombings.

    The Palestinians should renounce terrorism, and actually desist from doing it. This would cause the already massive sympathy for their plight to become overwhelming.

    They should then negotiate for something like the Saudi plan. They won’t get all of it, for example a full right of return, but they should be able to improve on the last offer at Taba.

    It is the Palestinian terror tactics that keep Israel in the game. They cause utter revulsion in all decent people. Perversely, these tactics have absolutely no realistic possibility of changing Israel’s behaviour.

  64. I just noticed this report about recent negotiations. How does terrorism do anything other than to undermine such negotiations?

  65. The recent Gaza conflict was, as is usually the case with Israeli actions, a response to terrorism perpetrated against Jews. The main culprits were Hamas who, by using their civilians as human shields, were responsible for the civilian casualties, as well as being solely responsible for battle in the first place.” – SB

    Utterly hopeless.

    As has been revealed since the pointless Israeli assault on Gaza, Hamas made offers to re-negotiate the ceasefire that had lapsed. The Israeli govt, focussed on upcoming elections, did not even consider the possibility. And as we now know, planning for an assault on Gaza was already well advanced. Futhermore, IDF planning had calculated that any entry into Gaza would require massive firepower to prevent IDF casualties and predicted that up to 1000 Palestinian civilians would be killed in doing so.

    Since, IDF soldier have admitted that free-fire regulations were used that permitted the killing of any unarmed Palestinian civilian that crossed certain imaginary IDF lines.

    The IDF t-shirt controversy then demonstrated the kind of culture that exists within the Israeli army towards Palestinian women and children (t-shirt with crosshairs over a pregnant Palestinian woman, caption- “One Shot, Two Kills”).

    So, durng the assualt rockets fell at greater rates than before, sriking further into Isrel than ever. They stopped only when a tentative cease-fire agreement was reached – exactly what was on offer form the evil Hamas before the Israeli invasion.

    But, yeah….it was all the Palestinians fault.

  66. Michael:

    As has been revealed since the pointless Israeli assault on Gaza, Hamas made offers to re-negotiate the ceasefire that had lapsed.

    This is completely disingenuous drivel.

    The ceasefire didn’t lapse. Hamas leader Meshal announced, before it expired, that it would not be renewed.

    The ceasefire was continuously breached by Hamas during its currency.

    Given this situation, even if the highly conditional Hamas overtures were sincere, why would Israel entertain them? What good is a ceasefire if it means nothing to Hamas and the rockets still come?

    It is abundantly clear that the first step to successful negotiations is for the Hamas terror tactics to stop. The only purpose they serve is to render negotiations pointless, which is exactly what Hamas wants.

    If you actually wanted peace you wouldn’t waste your time justifying the murderous and criminal tactics of Hamas. How exactly do you see a peaceful settlement being reached if Hamas won’t stop targeting Israeli civilians?

  67. Wrong.

    What ever you think Mishal said, an Israeli revelaed that he was the intermediary who carrid an offer for a renewel of the cease-fire. He was gobsmacked at the complete lack of interest from the Israeli side.

    This was the exact same negotiation mechanicism of the original ceasefire which lead to a dramatic reduction, to almost nothing, of rocket fire.

  68. The ceasefire didn’t lapse. Hamas leader Meshal announced, before it expired, that it would not be renewed.

    Why did he say this?
    Could it be that Israel, once again, didn’t honour their cease-fire commitiments by opening the borders?

    The ceasefire was continuously breached by Hamas during its currency.

    That’s a lie and you know it.
    Even Melbourne boy Regev admits as much

    You can argue all you wish in favour of your favourite regime, but stop telling lies!

  69. Marek, SB isn’t lying if he actually believes it, which sadly seems to be the case about the whole history of the conflict.

    The IDF has been killing Palestinian civilians since before Hamas and even Fatah ever existed, yet somehow in SB’s mind the conflict is perpetuated by the Palestinians.

    It is exactly correct that conditions of the ceasefire were the opening of the borders to Gaza, which Israel didn’t do, and then they broke the ceasefire on November 6th.
    Nobody here is defending the actions of Hamas I’m pretty sure, but based on the history of the conflict, it’s hardly surprising that 60 years of terrorism against the Palestinians is going to drive some Palestinians to retailiate with “whatever means necesassary”, (to steal from Malcom X)

  70. Marek:

    “The ceasefire was continuously breached by Hamas during its currency.”

    That’s a lie and you know it.

    As you well know, Hamas fired over 300 rockets and mortars into Israel during the “truce”. Who’s lying?

    EvShow:
    It is exactly correct that conditions of the ceasefire were the opening of the borders to Gaza, which Israel didn’t do,

    Israel agreed to limited opening of some crossings. Initially some were opened but Israel closed them again after the rocket fire resumed.

    Hamas used the truce to re-arm. It never stopped the importation of arms through Rafah as agreed.

    60 years of terrorism against the Palestinians

    This is an inversion of history. In 1947 the UN announced the borders of the new states of Israel and Palestine. Neither side got what they wanted. The UN essentially based its decision on demographics. The UN gave Israel three bantustans, separate blobs of land. The Israelis accepted this as they preferred peace to violence

    The Palestinians rejected the UN settlement, and, along with five neighbouring countries declared war on Israel. So began the current campaign of terror against Israel.

    Sadly, if the Palestinians had accepted the UN settlement, they would now have more land than they are ever likely to get.

    It is highly appropriate that as a result of their resort to violence they lose land. That is why Strasbourg is French today, not German.

    The history of the conflict has been a continuous campaign of Palestinian aggression, with the help of neighbouring Arab states.

    There can be no peace until this aggression stops. It will not stop because the Palestinians do not want peace. The want a one (Palestinian) state solution.

    Just take a moment to think how much pressure would be put on Israel by the West if the Palestinians gave up their armed struggle and started to negotiate a peaceful solution. The renunciation of violence is the only way forward.

  71. Just take a moment to think how much pressure would be put on Israel by the West if the Palestinians gave up their armed struggle and started to negotiate a peaceful solution. The renunciation of violence is the only way forward.” – SB

    A bit, but not as much as some think. And that is becuase it is essentially an excuse not to end the occupation. In lieu of that excuse, others will be found. Conveniently forgotten by most, is that the 1st Intifada was mostly peaceful civil resistance, which was met by a brutal Israeli response, rather than a peaceful solution.

    An interesting thought experiment is to ask if those demanding a “renunciation of violence” from Palestinians would demand the same from the Israelis? Or even if the thought had ever entered their pretty little heads.

    I think we know the answer.

  72. Michael:

    An interesting thought experiment is to ask if those demanding a “renunciation of violence” from Palestinians would demand the same from the Israelis? Or even if the thought had ever entered their pretty little heads.

    Absolutely. Of course this would not be difficult since most Israeli operations (like the recent Gaza incursion) are reactions to Palestinian terror attacks.

    I would have thought that in return for a renunciation of violence there would also be a freeze on new settlements.

  73. Hello Marek and Zoot,

    I have read the Red Cross article that you linked and note Herby’s statement that they haven’t released any public comment about Israel’s use of WP, clearly I was misled by the numerous articles, (the one I linked to is one of many that are easily googled), that were released at the time claiming that the Red Cross had made a statement on it’s use. It does seem though, even from your link, that what the article is saying is basically correct — the Red Cross has not accused Israel of committing any war-crime in its use of WP.

    Please note this statement on your link from Herby:
    “If used against military targets in or near populated areas, weapons containing this substance must be used with extreme caution to prevent civilian casualties” — In other words, it can be legally used in the manner in which Israel did so.
    Herby stops short of accusing Israel of committing a war crime in it’s use of WP in Gaza, pending further investigation — which is exactly the position I’ve taken in my original post.

    Don’t get me wrong here though, even if it turns out not to be a war-crime, I still think it is morally wrong to use it in heavily populated areas and the IDF should and could have used other, less lethal smoke-screen munitions.

    I can’t get the link to Regev to work Marek, I would be interested to see what he said though….

    Michael
    “The IDF t-shirt controversy then demonstrated the kind of culture that exists within the Israeli army towards Palestinian women and children (t-shirt with crosshairs over a pregnant Palestinian woman, caption- “One Shot, Two Kills”).”

    I’ll just repeat what I said originally — a few hundred shirts printed up by a few graduate soldiers without the permission or knowledge of either the Israeli government nor the higher echelons of the IDF, not condoned by either, and who have said anyone found to be wearing those shirts would be punished.

    You do realise there are over half a million personnel in the IDF ? Who’d have thought that there might be a fraction of a percentage of extremists, or just plain young fools amongst that many people ?

    It hardly shows the ‘culture’ of the entire IDF.

  74. So SB – do you support Israel’s right to use white phosphorous against Palestinian civilian areas?

    And if so – would you consider the civilians that will undoubtedly be burned to death by said use to have been ‘murdered’, or simply killed by the IDF?

  75. It’s their own fault for living in an area in which other Palestinians allegedly did bad things.

    Silly civilians.

  76. Mondo:

    do you support Israel’s right to use white phosphorous against Palestinian civilian areas?

    There are no civilian areas in Gaza. The criminal tactics of Hamas mean that the battlefield is everywhere – residential areas, mosques, schools, everywhere.

    Hamas knows that dead civilians mean good propaganda for them. Hamas is quite happy to make martyrs of their own population. They know that most observers will not hold them to account, that they will blindly criticise Israel and ignore Hamas’s culpability. Maybe you should reserve even a tincture of your outrage for them.

    As to Israel’s use of white phosphorous, I will wait for the various investigations to get at the relevant facts. It will depend on where it was used and in what circumstances.

  77. The Israelis were hoping to take over Gaza during the ’67 war by frightening the citizens into leaving.

    But the Palestinians learned from the previous wars that if they abandoned their homes, they would never get them back. They refused to leave, unlike Ashkelon etc.

    Also the problem for Israel is that they cannot assimilate the Gaza strip into their country. There’s too many people, and it would alter the makeup of the Knesset. All those Palestinians would vote for the wrong party.

    So the next tactic to get rid of them is to starve them out, by building massive Berlin-style walls.
    “We should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we’ll see where that leads.”

  78. GavinM.
    Very sorry about that broken link.
    I’m really missing the old preview function!!

    Here it is.

    Cheers.

  79. Karl, regurgitating Chomsky his hardly a substitute for rational argument. Chomsky is not noted for his objectivity or for his ability to tell the truth.

    The fact is that, immediately after the 1967 war, Israel tried to hand back the territory captured in the war in return for peace with the Arab world. The neighbouring countries refused to negotiate with Israel. They famously declared “no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel”.

    When Egypt finally signed a treaty with Israel it refused to take Gaza back.

    In 2005 Israel forcibly removed the Jews living in Gaza as a goodwill gesture. In return they got more terrorist attacks.

  80. “We should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we’ll see where that leads.”

    Good one Karl, 30 odd year old quotes from Moshe Dayan are really relevant today — we’re told by their sympathisers here that the Hamas charter which is far more recent than your quote and which states their aim is the destruction of Israel, is outdated and no longer relevant.

    As to Israel’s alleged starving of Gaza, I’d suggest some people here do a little research on life expectancies in the region, you’ll find that those in Gaza are on a par with almost every other Arab country around them — hardly evidence of some sort of genocide being committed by Israel.

    Please provide some evidence of Israel trying to frighten the Palestinians out of Gaza in the 1967 war.

  81. Hi Marek,

    Thanks for that link — I’ll have to look at it later, I’m at work so can’t play videos with sound…

  82. Call me pedantic GavinM, but the international Red Cross said that Israel’s use of white phosphorus had not breached international law is not the same as the Red Cross has not accused Israel of committing any war-crime in its use of WP.
    Going by the sentence from Herby preceding the one I quoted, it would appear the ICRC is unlikely to pass judgement one way or the other on the IDF, “in keeping with [their] standard practices”.
    Like you, I was amazed at the unanimity in the results of my first google. Obviously the misreading of the ICRC stance has been seized upon by apologists for the IDF.

  83. Maybe you should reserve even a tincture of your outrage for them.

    Maybe you should stop attempting to dictate my own position on this issue back to me SB. I can assure you that I am quite equal opportunity in my ability to be outraged.

    If you become one of those pundits who insists that all comments on the Israel/Palestine issue be prefaced with “I condemn the terrorist activities perpetrated by some Palestinian groups” before you will accept any modicum of criticism towards the Israelis then things are going to get very boring, very quickly.

    Still – it’s instructive that you can’t answer a simple and impartial question about Israeli use of white phosphorous without first accusing the questioner of moral equivalence just for asking it.

    I’m guessing that you quite willingly play the very dark propoganda game of referring to dead Palestinians as ‘killed’ whilst reserving ‘murder’ for Israelis only. That, by itself, tells me pretty much all I need to know about how honest you allow yourself to be in relation to this issue.

  84. Hi Zoot,

    You’re right it’s not the same, I’m sure that the ICRC will pass on the findings of their investigations to whatever UN or other organisation that is responsible for prosecuting war-crimes, which is no doubt, why it’s important they don’t pass any judgements — the ICRC has to be seen to be impartial.

    I suspect it won’t be easy to prove that the use of WP was done so illegally by the Israelis, as to do so the prosecution would have to show that it was used in a direct fire method against targets — I’m really not sure how that can be proven in a combat situation.

    As I said above though, wether war-crime or not, it was morally wrong for the Israelis to use WP in Gaza as there was always a very high probability that the fall-out from it would cause civilian casualties.

    Hi Mondo,

    I think the difference between the dead Palestinian civilians and the dead Israeli ones is the intent… Hamas deliberately and systematically targets Israeli civilians when launching its rockets, I’m yet to be convinced that the Israelis do the same to Palestinian civilians.

    Doesn’t make them any less dead of course, but there is a clear difference between the killings.

  85. Mondo:

    I’m guessing that you quite willingly play the very dark propoganda game of referring to dead Palestinians as ‘killed’ whilst reserving ‘murder’ for Israelis only. That, by itself, tells me pretty much all I need to know about how honest you allow yourself to be in relation to this issue.

    As Gavin said, murder requires intent. In this case the intent of the Israelis is kill terrorists firing rockets at them.

    On the other hand, the Hamas terrorists intends to kill Jews. That is clearly murder but even on this simple issue you can only look at it from one point of view.

    Still – it’s instructive that you can’t answer a simple and impartial question about Israeli use of white phosphorous without first accusing the questioner of moral equivalence just for asking it.

    My point was that the issue of the use of WP in civilian areas also includes the issue of why there was fighting in civilian areas.

    Obviously if Hamas weren’t storing and launching munitions in civilian areas then any use of WP would be wrong and could easily be condemned.

    On the other hand if the use of the WP was rendered necessary because of the activities of the gutless Hamas terrorists then Israel’s use of the WP may have been legitimate, and the real blame lies with Hamas. This latter possibility appears to have completely escaped you in your rush to judgment.

  86. The difference between a home-made rocket fired indiscriminately into a civilian population and white phosphorous fired discriminately into a civilian population is a pretty shallow one Gavin. Useful only to those who wish to draw false moral distinctions that allow them to switch off their humanity towards the sufffering on one side of the conflict (see SB’s assertion above that all Palestinians, inlcuding children, are fair targets for the Israeli military machine)

    The reality is that the Palestinians have no method of resistance that the blindly pro-Israel will ever accept. Such ideologues will continue to propogandize the resistance as ‘murderers’, all whilst shielding the actions of an enormously more powerful and organised army from scrutiny.

    It’s such a transparent ploy. It’s been tried by every occupation in the history of the world.

  87. On the other hand if the use of the WP was rendered necessary because of the activities of the gutless Hamas terrorists then Israel’s use of the WP may have been legitimate, and the real blame lies with Hamas.

    Hilarious.

    By this argument Israel could nuke the Palestinians and SB would say it was Palestine’s fault.

    Israel has a choice as to how it responds to the violence of Hamas SB – nobody is forcing them to respond in a particular way. Only a monster could possibly consider the use of WP in a civilian area to be the “necessary” choice.

  88. Mondo:

    see SB’s assertion above that all Palestinians, inlcuding children, are fair targets for the Israeli military machine

    This is an out-and-out lie. I’m frankly surprised that you would resort to this Mondo.

    The reality is that the Palestinians have no method of resistance that the blindly pro-Israel will ever accept. Such ideologues will continue to propogandize the resistance as ‘murderers’

    No decent person would accept murder as a legitimate tactic. Apparently you do.

    Please explain exactly when you think murdering civilians is legitimate. Do you think deliberately targeting civilians is OK so long as you label it “resistance”, or is it OK so long as the civilians are Jews?

  89. Mondo:

    Only a monster could possibly consider the use of WP in a civilian area to be the “necessary” choice.

    You are wrong about that. Use of WP in civilian areas hasn’t been absolutely prohibited.

    You are also ridiculously hypocritical calling anyone else a monster given that you support the right of Palestinians to murder Jews.

  90. “You are also ridiculously hypocritical calling anyone else a monster given that you support the right of Palestinians to murder Jews.”

    First warning.

  91. Thanks Jeremy – saves me the trouble of pointing out that SB is now trying to run my side of the argument as well as his own (and creating ridiculous strawmen for me in the process).

    However, to be fair, I feel that I should back up my comment above that SB believes Palestinian children are legitimate targets for the Israeli military. Suffice to say that SB didn’t use those exact words – what he actually said was:

    There are no civilian areas in Gaza. The criminal tactics of Hamas mean that the battlefield is everywhere – residential areas, mosques, schools, everywhere.

    This is not a literal declaration that it’s OK for Israel to target civilians – although it is a practical one. That is to say there is, in practice, no circumstance where SB will not be able to entirely absolve Israel for the death of Palestinian civilians – even where those deaths are avoidable or excessive.

  92. Mondo,

    “The difference between a home-made rocket fired indiscriminately into a civilian population and white phosphorous fired discriminately into a civilian population is a pretty shallow one Gavin……”

    Actually Mondo, there’s a huge difference, to fire indiscriminately means you don’t care who or how many civilians are killed, firing discriminately implies you are taking some care to, as much as possible, minimise casualties and take out selected targets — we know for a fact that Hamas fires rockets at civilians but at this point there is still no proof that Israel has used WP munitions — (or any other) — in the same way, the IDF say they have used it only as a smoke-screen, which means it is fired into the air — as I said, if that’s true it’s not a war-crime although in an area like Gaza it does pose a question of ethics, if, on the other hand investigations show that the Israelis have deliberately targetted civilians, (not just with WP), then by all means they should be prosecuted for war-crimes….

    If you’re killed by a home-made rocket, you’re just as dead as you are if you’re killed by a Cruise missile …The level of technology is irrelevant, they both go bang and leave a big hole — at any rate, Hamas isn’t just using home-made rockets, although that’s a myth that they and their Iranian suppliers would like Westerners to believe.

    Given their very well documented record of deliberately targetting Israeli civilians and using their own as human shields, when can I expect to see the calls for the Hamas leadership to be prosecuted for war-crimes ?

  93. The problem within this argument is clearly one side has a revisionist version of history.
    Some people are aware that Israel have obstructed the peace policy purely so they have a reason to demolish more homes, build more illegal settlements and generally perform ethnic cleansing of the land so they have a one Jewish only state without any pesky Palestinians around.
    And then there are people who believe what they want to believe and when pointed to evidence to the contrary, they throw out the equivilant of “everyone knows Chomsky’s a liar” or “I don’t care what some Israeli Politician said 30 years ago, things have changed and although Israel said they were going to commit genocide back then, they are smart enough to not state that shit out load anymore” or some such similar argument.

    And of course, using the words “murder” and “jew” in the same sentence is the best way to maintain the moral high ground, because now SB is arguing with a bunch of Anti Semites in his mind.

  94. Jeremy:

    First warning.

    How about this then:

    Mondo:

    The reality is that the Palestinians have no method of resistance that the blindly pro-Israel will ever accept. Such ideologues will continue to propogandize the resistance as ‘murderers’

    Why does the selective targeting and killing of Jewish Israeli citizens not amount to murder? Why is it wrong to label this a s murder. Why do use the term ‘hesitance’?

    Note that Arab Israeli civilians are not targeted for for killing by the Palestinian terrorist groups.

  95. To answer you actual questions SB (before you make a further arse of yourself by creating strawmen positions that I’ve never taken):

    Please explain exactly when you think murdering civilians is legitimate.

    To be honest I just don’t accept that it’s vaguely useful to use words like ‘murder’ when it comes to armed conflict between states. ‘Murder’ refers simply to an unlawful killing – which depends wholly on the laws of the State in which the accusation is made. This has obvious limits when two states are at war. Similarly – ‘legitimate’, in the context of a military occupation, is a largely meaningless and completely subjective term.

    I suspect you’re simply asking a question designed to ‘trap’ me into expressing a view that you consider flagrantly immoral – thereby allowing you to dismiss the content of my viewpoint. It’s a weak way to argue. It’s playing the man and not the ball.

    Do you think deliberately targeting civilians is OK so long as you label it “resistance”, or is it OK so long as the civilians are Jews?

    I assume you’ll be trotting out the ‘anti-semite’ label soon – that age-old friend to free-expression when it comes to anything Israel.

    But, ignoring your sad attempt to paint me as a bigot, the answer to your question is that I see this issue solely in terms of what behaviour is helpful to the cause of peace and what is not. By that measure I would say that the deliberate targeting of civilians is rarely helpful – and Hamas’ actions are no exception.

  96. “As to Israel’s alleged starving of Gaza, I’d suggest some people here do a little research on life expectancies in the region, you’ll find that those in Gaza are on a par with almost every other Arab country around them — hardly evidence of some sort of genocide being committed by Israel.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/chronic-malnutrition-in-gaza-blamed-on-israel-1019521.html
    There’s a siege happening right now.

    “Please provide some evidence of Israel trying to frighten the Palestinians out of Gaza in the 1967 war.”

    The entire six day war was a land grab, Moshe Dayan admitted it in 1976.

    ” On being asked to comment about Syria as a threat to Israel in the 1967 War, this is what Moshe Dayan had to say.

    “This was bullshit, Syria was not a threat to Israel before 1967. Just drop it. I know how at least 80 percent of all the incidents with Syria started. We were sending a tractor to the demilitarized zone and we knew that the Syrians would shoot. If they did not shoot, we would instruct the tractor to go deeper, till the Syrians finally got upset and started shooting. Then we employed artillery and later also the air force …. I did that ….and Yitzhak Rabin did that, when he was there.”

    According to Dayan the Israeli provocation for the war with Syria was greediness for the land. “to grab a piece of land and keep it until the enemy gets tired and gives it to us”. ”

    The only trouble is, the Palestinians didnt flee Gaza.

  97. firing discriminately implies you are taking some care to, as much as possible, minimise casualties and take out selected targets

    It doesn’t imply any such thing Gavin. All it ‘implies’ is that there was a military target somewhere amongst the dead civilians.

    It may make you feel good – as though your side of the conflict is ‘good’ and the other ‘evil’ – but in terms of behaviour that will progress us towards resolution of this conflict it is indistinguishable from a Hamas rocket attack.

  98. Karl, if there is such a shortage of food in Gaza, why is the Hamas government spending money on weapons instead of feeding it’s people ?
    The international community pours millions of dollars in both cash and goods into Gaza every year — where does it all go ?

    It should be pretty obvious to everyone that this so-called siege of Gaza is not much more than a propaganda piece by the Hamas government — either that or Israel needs to get better at it –because they certainly don’t seem to have any trouble importing weapons and munitions.

    As to the 1967 war — the “land grabs” from Syria had nothing to do with forcing the Palestinians to flee Gaza and took place in a series of border clashes dating from 1949 and leading up to the 1967 war — once again, using events that occurred up to 60 years ago to criticise Israel today is a sign of desperation.

    Gaza and the West Bank were over-run during the fighting with Egypt and Jordan, and at the end of hostilities the Israelis offered Gaza back to Egypt in return for peace, however, the Egyptians refused.

    Sorry, but there is no evidence anywhere in your post that suggests that Israel tried to frighten the Palestinians out of Gaza. I’d suggest you do a little research into how the Palestinians actually came to be in Gaza in the first place — given that they started out as Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians.

  99. Mondo

    “It doesn’t imply any such thing Gavin. All it ‘implies’ is that there was a military target somewhere amongst the dead civilians.”

    As distinct to firing indiscriminately into civilian areas where it is known there are no military targets — huge difference Mondo, I’m sorry if you can’t see it.

    Using discrimination means you are aiming at a specific target.

  100. Mondo: “I see this issue solely in terms of what behaviour is helpful to the cause of peace and what is not.”
    I’ll give that 100% support. How about you other guys?
    SB?
    Gavin?
    Anyone?

  101. Absolutely. Of course this would not be difficult since most Israeli operations (like the recent Gaza incursion) are reactions to Palestinian terror attacks.” – SB

    Israeli violence is 24/7 rather than sporadic.

    Control of the entire civilian population is based on the constant threat and use of military force. Heavily armed soldiers, armoured personnel carriers, helicopter gunships etc move around ‘Palestininian territory’ at will.

    Nablus is an interesting case in point. In theory it is Area A – under complete Palestinian control. But every night, IDF units move into Nablus raiding homes – IDF units surround a residential home, snipers are posted and heavily armed combat troops move in, kicking down the doors, dragging people out of bed and turning houses up-side down. This happens every night. And not just in Nablus.

    While I feel some sympathy for the people in Sderot, if they were to spend a week in Nablus, they’d be begging to go back to Sderot.

  102. Hi Zoot,

    Absolutely…There’s fault on both sides and both need to re-think their tactics.

  103. There are no civilian areas in Gaza. The criminal tactics of Hamas mean that the battlefield is everywhere – residential areas, mosques, schools, everywhere. ” – SB

    Wow, SB is almost up there with the extremist IDF Chief Rabi who prepared the troops by instructing them that there were no civilians in Gaza and therefore they needn’t worry about whom they killed there.

  104. Gavin, I’m glad we agree.

  105. Using discrimination means you are aiming at a specific target.

    Lets clear this up once and for all Gavin. Firing into a civilian area in order to hit a military target when you know that doing so will kill multiple innocent civilians is an imoral act. There is simply no way to argue otherwise based on a standard western notion of morality.

    Such an action can possibly be justified by some during wartime – particularly when the opposing side leaves you with little choice (as SB has corretcly noted above) – however that does not change the nature of the act.

    Firing rockets indiscriminately into a civilian area is also an immoral act – again there is no real way to argue otherwise.

    Such an action can possibly be justified by some during wartime – particularly when the opposing side leaves you with little choice – however that does not change the immoral nature of the act.

    If you want to analyse the conflict using morality as a marker then it is certainly arguable that Israel’s immorality is less offensive than Palestine’s – as an aside I note that this would be my personal judgement if I thought that judgement at all relevant – however even assuming that this was the consensus position how does that allow you any insight into this conflict whatsoever?

    I’m not saying that the IDF isn’t more restrained than Hamas in its prosecution of this conflict – what I’m saying is that this is irrelevant when it comes to evaluating the Israeli response.

  106. Mondo:

    I just don’t accept that it’s vaguely useful to use words like ‘murder’ when it comes to armed conflict between states. ‘Murder’ refers simply to an unlawful killing – which depends wholly on the laws of the State in which the accusation is made

    This is an outrageous prevarication. You clearly don’t like calling murder out for what it is when it doesn’t suit you. I really don’t know what else you call slamming the butt of your rifle into a four year old girl’s head, much less the community that greeted the perpetrator as a hero.

    If you want to play word games about that sort of thing, you have defined yourself in the ugliest way possible.

    Murder is one form of unlawful killing. There are less culpable forms, but for murder you need an intention to kill the victim.

    This is the yawning gap between Hamas and Israel. Israel targets terrorists. Hamas targets any Israeli civilian provided they are Jew. This is consistent with Palestinian culture which is rife with Jew hatred through text books, kids TV shows, sermons and even in the Hamas charter.

    According to the weasels we shouldn’t have regard to what the terrorists say, or even what they do because Palestinians are victims and can do no wrong. So what if they have a policy of murdering civilians (so long as they happen to be Jews) we’ll just call that ‘resistance’ and just keep blaming Israel for everything.

    The Palestinian shills here can’t get it through their heads that if there is ever to be peace, the violence must stop. The hideous ghouls who keep rabbiting on about resistance are cheer-leading murder.

    All that firing rockets into Israel will produce is never-ending conflict. If the violence stops then progress can be made towards peace.

    Why is this the one conflict in the world where the left is actually promoting violence?

    I see this issue solely in terms of what behaviour is helpful to the cause of peace and what is not. By that measure I would say that the deliberate targeting of civilians is rarely helpful – and Hamas’ actions are no exception.

    If this is so then why do you glorify Hamas’s terrorism as resistance.?

    There is no possibility of peace for so long as the Palestinians fire rockets at Israeli towns. If the rockets continue Israel has no option but to take all necessary action to stop them.

    The Palestinian violence will continue until Israel is destroyed and the Jews are driven out. There is no other option acceptable to the Palestinians. There is no other way of explaining the Palestinian conduct.

  107. Michael:

    “There are no civilian areas in Gaza. The criminal tactics of Hamas mean that the battlefield is everywhere – residential areas, mosques, schools, everywhere. ” – SB

    Wow, SB is almost up there with the extremist IDF Chief Rabi who prepared the troops by instructing them that there were no civilians in Gaza and therefore they needn’t worry about whom they killed there.

    I have nothing to add. Your reply has nothing to do with my statement, except possibly in your deluded mind.

    But every night, IDF units move into Nablus raiding homes – IDF units surround a residential home, snipers are posted and heavily armed combat troops move in, kicking down the doors, dragging people out of bed and turning houses up-side down. This happens every night. And not just in Nablus.

    The Israelis do what the Palestinians should do, and would do if they where at all interested in peace. That is arrest the terrorists in their midst. The Israelis arrest their own terrorists and imprison them. They ban Israeli terrorist organisations.

    As the Palestinians do not do this, the Israelis must do so in order to protect themselves.

    What would you prefer they did? Leave the terrorists to unimpeded in their grisly work?

  108. You really should up your meds SB, you’re getting more and more hysterical.
    For what? Do you think your outbursts here are going to make one iota of difference? On this thread we have at least three contributors (from both sides of the argument) who agree that for any progress towards peace to be made, both sides of the conflict must rethink their tactics.
    And still you’re carrying on like a pork chop. If it means so much to you, go to Israel and help stamp out the “murderers”. Do something positive for goodness sake.

  109. SB, At first you claimed Hamas fired rockets indiscriminately into Israel, and then you claimed that Hamas specifically target Jews? So which one is it?
    How many civilians were actually killed by Hamas during the recent rocket attacks? And how many were actually Jewish? There was at least one Arab Israeli killed and 3 others wounded on a building site. That is hardley specific targetting of Jew’s.
    SB, you also keep mentioning some incident about a 4 year old girl being killed and the killer being welcomed as a hero yet provide no evidence of such, can you provide a link please.
    Everyone here from the left that I can see has stated that they disagree with the tactics employed by Hamas as well, why do you keep saying people are trying to justify it?

  110. For anyone that is actually interested in peace and objective discussion that happens to live in Melbourne, Antonty Lowenstein is speaking this week at Melbourne Uni.

  111. As the Palestinians do not do this, the Israelis must do so in order to protect themselves.

    What would you prefer they did? Leave the terrorists to unimpeded in their grisly work?” – SB

    Yes, that’s the circular logic of the occupation – every Palestinian summarily executed, or imprisoned, is a ‘terrorist’ because they were killed or imprisoned. What Israel does in the occupied territories can’t really be described as ‘arrests’ as it doesn’t follow any recognizable legal norm. People are dragged from their homes by the combat soldiers of a foreign military and taken off to secret prisons where they have no legal representation and are not charged, officially, with any crime. They are then subject to torture (and several other methods) to extract confessions which are then used as the basis to subject them to an Israeli military tribunal that, routinely, finds them guilty. Any names extracted during the torture then serve as the bais for the next round of arrests, for those named individuals to be dragged from their homes, taken to secret prisons, tortured……etc etc.

    But, yes, all with the purest of intentions.

  112. “As to the 1967 war — the “land grabs” from Syria had nothing to do with forcing the Palestinians to flee Gaza and took place in a series of border clashes dating from 1949 and leading up to the 1967 war — once again, using events that occurred up to 60 years ago to criticise Israel today is a sign of desperation.”

    Gaza was invaded on lies, and remains occupied today. It has been occupied by one force or another for centuries. Yet people still blame the Gazans for lashing out at their jailors? I think this has some bearing on what’s happening now. Squalid refugee camps don’t spontaneously appear.

  113. EvShow:

    SB, At first you claimed Hamas fired rockets indiscriminately into Israel, and then you claimed that Hamas specifically target Jews? So which one is it?

    How many civilians were actually killed by Hamas during the recent rocket attacks? And how many were actually Jewish? There was at least one Arab Israeli killed and 3 others wounded on a building site. That is hardley specific targetting of Jew’s.

    If I fire a gun at people in a mosque, chances are I’m targeting muslims. The fact that I may actually kill a visiting non-muslim, would not detract from the fact that I was targeting muslims.

    Everyone here from the left that I can see has stated that they disagree with the tactics employed by Hamas as well, why do you keep saying people are trying to justify it?

    The usual response is a justification of murder as resistance, a discussion of whether murder is the appropriate terminology, and sometimes a cursory condemnation.

    This is the most disappointing thing about this thread. There is no real appreciation of the difference between cold-blooded murder spewing from a the twisted anti-semitism of doomsday cultists and defensive actions which target perpetrators and unfortunately kill civilians. Note that in this latter case the fact that civilians are killed is the fault of the gutless terrorists who use them as human shields.

    If you are going to treat Israel as though it is deliberately killing civilians then it has no incentive to show any restraint at all. If Israel adopted the Hamas approach then it would keeping killing Palestinian civilians until Israel was no longer under threat. In fact it would exterminate the lot of them for that is what the Palestinians seek to do to the Jews – drive them into the sea.

    If, depending on the justness of the cause, murder can be excused as ‘resistance’ then there are no more rules, just a debate about the justness of the cause.

    We have slowly advanced from the depravity of past conflicts to a place of slightly less depravity in combat now. Reinstating the right of combatants to kill civilians either directly, or by turning a blind eye to their tactics with a perfunctory one line condemnation is a step back into the dark ages.

    Here is the link you asked for. Kuntar (both a name and a description) was later pardoned and received by his community as a hero.

    His action was not unique the Palestinians have a history littered with similar atrocities. It comes from ingrained anti-semitism.

  114. Karl:

    Gaza was invaded on lies, and remains occupied today.

    The Israelis took Gaza in 1967 as part of a war they did not start. They immediately tried to give it back and made subsequent attempts to do so, but these attempts were rebuffed by Egypt.

  115. Michael I see from your post that everything Israel does is wrong, and that the best thing they could do is commit national suicide. Truly you are a shining wit.

    Still no word of condemnation for the Palestinian Jew murder policy.

    At least you are consistent.

  116. Are you for real SB??? That incident is truely disgusting but to use an incident that is “regarded as the most brutal terror attack in the history of Israel” as the norm is very dishonest.
    Add to that that, Samir Kuntar was not even Palestinian, yet you maintain that this behaviour defines Palestinians!
    Yes there have clearly been isolated cases of actual terrorist groups such as the above, however the IDF has been doing exactly this kind of thing for 60years!!!
    Nobody here is going to defend Kuntar, but you continue to defend the IDF, you want us to know about some poor girls “skull being smashed in” in order to demonise and entire national identity, but you object to being presented with dozens of pictures of Palestinian children targetted by the IDF!
    And as for your news source, no wonder your so demented if this is where you get your news from. It’s hardly like they are going to ever tell the whole truth about how it’s actually Israel obstructing the peace process.
    What does your news source say of Sabra or Shatila? What does it say of Deir Yassin I wonder?

  117. Hi Marek if you’re still around,

    I finally got to see the Regev link, I’m not sure that he acknowledges that Israel broke the ceasefire in it though — his position is that they acted in self defence.

    This question of who broke the ceasefire is a vexed one I think — what constitutes a breach and what came first ?
    For mine, I’d say Hamas’ construction of tunnels into Israel was a breach, there can’t be any other reason other than that they intended to use them as a launch pad for terrorist activities.

    Karl,

    “Gaza was invaded on lies, and remains occupied today.”

    Please do some research, using independent sources, into the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

    Mondo,

    “Lets clear this up once and for all Gavin. Firing into a civilian area in order to hit a military target when you know that doing so will kill multiple innocent civilians is an imoral act. There is simply no way to argue otherwise based on a standard western notion of morality.”

    So are you saying that if a government or it’s armed forces deliberately use civilians as human shields to protect a legitimate military target, that the opposing military shouldn’t attack it ?

    If that is the case, you might get points for ethics but I’m afraid you’ll lose the war.

    “I’m not saying that the IDF isn’t more restrained than Hamas in its prosecution of this conflict – what I’m saying is that this is irrelevant when it comes to evaluating the Israeli response.”

    How can it be irrelevant ? It’s precisely their response that is attracting so much criticism from people here and elsewhere, and yet Hamas seems to get just about a free pass.

    I still haven’t seen some here even acknowledge the proven war crimes that Hamas have committed over a period of many years, let alone call for their prosecution.

    EvShow,

    Antony Lowenstein, objective ?? Please….

  118. Oh, and saying that he was welcomed aslo not entirely accurate.
    For one, even the J’ Post states “exactly how popular Kuntar is in Lebanon is up for some debate”.
    The guy denied killing the 4 year old and her father, and spent 30 years in an Israeli jail. Any popularity that he MAY have is clearly more to do with his jailing and killing of the police officer than the little girl. I’m pretty sure that had he announced that aspect he would be much less popular than whatever popularity he has now.
    So all you have managed to prove SB, is that you pick and choose your news to suit your view and your arguments, and you are prepared to demonise an entire national idenity because of the actions of a very very few.
    Do you believe that all Austrians are evil because of Hitler and now Fritzel?
    Do you believe that all Irish are terrorists because of some of the atrocities commited by the IRA? and all US are cannibals because of Dahmer perhaps?

  119. Gavin, can you provide a source of information that you use, that you think is objective and independent?

  120. SB,

    Just thought that you needed an injection of reality into the ‘terrorism-justifies-anything-Israel-does’ mantra.

    It don’t.

    And while I am a supporter of non-violent resistence to the violent occupation, I’m realistic enough to understand that not everyone’s response to decades of home destruction, torture, land theft, abuse, degradation, false imprisonment and extra-judicial assassination, will be to sit around singing kumbaya.

    By way of example let me offer you this little vignette of an ‘arch-terrorist’, a ‘wanted man’ with ‘blood on his hands’;

    Z. grew up in Jenin refugee camp. His mother was a peace activist who worked with Israeli peace activists. Z.’s home was the base for this shared endeavour. One particular Israeli woman came regularly and set up a theatre troupe, including Z, and they regularly sang, danced and put on plays with their Israeli friends. Z was one of five main child actors in the troupe.
    Z. joined the armed resistance groups after a friend was killed by the IDF in 2001. By early 2002, the other 4 of his child-hood acting friends (now aged in their early twenties) were all dead. In March 2002, his mother was shot dead in her home by an IDF sniper, his brother was killed a month later in the invasion of Jenin and the family home was bulldozed. By this point Z. was personally opposed to peace with Israel. But his anger wasn’t directed towards the IDF or Ariel Sharon. He was most bitter that after his mothers murder, of all those Israeli friends who had stayed at his family home and shared meals with them, not a single one of them rang to offer their condolances.

  121. EvShow I don’t see any difference between Palestinians and other Arabs fighting in their cause. Many Palestinians live in Lebanon. The action was taken as part of the Palestinian ‘struggle’. By your logic Sabra and Shatila was a crime against the Lebanese. Incidentally it was crime committed by Christians, but the Palestinians and their supporters never seem to mention that. They are far more interested in blaming Israelis.

    The crimes of Palestinians include:

    • Throwing an old man (selected because he was a Jew) over the side of a cruise-liner;
    • Gunning down Jewish Athletes at the Olympics in 1972;
    • Shooting a pregnant woman at point blank range having just shot her children in front of her;
    • Walking into a Pizza shop and murdering the occupants – mainly women, children and elderly people.
    • Walking into a seminary and gunning sown eight students.
    • Numerous bombings of civilian targets – discos, weddings, buses.

    Murdering defenceless civilians is the stock-in-trade for Palestinian terrorists. They are universally honoured in their community as martyrs. Those who excuse such acts as ‘resistance’ are sick and debased.

    Moral cretins react to this by white hot condemnation of Israeli defensive measures, while at the same time ignoring the Palestinian policy of murder.

    Until the murder stops there can be no peace.

  122. Michael, are you involved in any Solidarity orgs? I think from memory you are in the Melboune area and you have a pretty good sense of the conflict. If you’re not and you’re interested in getting involved then shoot me an email at fullofmel@gmail.com.
    It’s good to be aware at whats happening but things won’t change unless people are actually active in making change.

  123. SB, where did the Phalange get their weapons from? and who was surrounding Shatila and Sabra at the time?
    If someone set a vicious dog on an unarmed child, is that someone excusable?
    As for moral cretins who are sick and debased, all you have done so far is blame one side completely for the violence, whilst abosolving the other completely. Whilst those you are arguing with a saying that both sides are to blame, however Israel more than the other.

  124. Hello Ev,

    I don’t use any one source, to be honest there’s so much stuff to wade through whenever you start reading up on Mid-Eastern affairs — and most of it is biased towards one side or the other — that it’s really hard to find honest, unbiased reporting.

    The best I can do to answer your question is that I basically read as much as I can, and try to pick a middle ground based on common facts that are presented in numerous articles…I know it’s probably not the best method but I reckon it’s as sound as any.

    When I am going to link to a source, I try to use one that is, as best as I can tell from reading numerous articles on whatever the topic is, reporting from a neutral position. I admit often I get it wrong — no-one’s perfect — but I assure you that when I do it’s an honest mistake.

  125. EvShow:

    As for moral cretins who are sick and debased, all you have done so far is blame one side completely for the violence, whilst absolving the other completely. Whilst those you are arguing with a saying that both sides are to blame, however Israel more than the other.

    The Palestinian policy of murder makes a peaceful resolution impossible. This is exactly what Hamas et al want.

    If Israel had a policy of deliberately targeting civilians they would deserve equal condemnation. In any civilised world the prohibition on murder of civilians as a tactic is absolute. In this the Israelis are much better than the Palestinians. The trouble is that by glorifying Palestinian murder tactics as ‘resistance’ the Palestinians are rewarded for their actions.

    A reasonable process would be for the Palestinians to renounce their policy of murder, the Israelis to actually stop building new settlements and outposts, and for serious negotiations about the plethora of other issues to begin. What is unreasonable about that?

  126. As an aside, anyone who thinks Gaza is a ‘concentration camp’ needs to get a grip on reality…If you really want to see what a modern day concentration camp looks like, look up Omarska or Keraterm just to mention a couple from the Serbia/Bosnia conflict that I personally saw at the time (1992 – 93). There were a number of others in that region as well.

    I can assure you the images you see will be very different to those from Gaza.

  127. SB, simple question you’re avoiding here: Who supplied weapons to the Phalange and who controlled the borders of Sabre and Shatila?

  128. Hey Gavin, I’m still here.
    Regarding that link to Regev, it wasn’t my intention to claim that he supported the notion of Israel breaking the ceasefire.
    Rather, I used that link to countrer the persistant lie that Hamas didn’t stop it’s missile attacks.
    They did and Mark Regev admits as much in the video.

    Murdering defenceless civilians is the stock-in-trade for Palestinian terrorists. They are universally honoured in their community as martyrs. Those who excuse such acts as ‘resistance’ are sick and debased.
    SB // 31 March, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Hear! Hear! SB.
    While we’re on the topic, allow me to introduce you to the sick and debased world of mass murder Baruch Goldstein and the cummunity that universally honours him as a martyr

    Not bad for a doctor and model Zionist from New York!

  129. Marek I absolutely agree with you about Goldstein. In fact so does the Israeli government. They banned the Kach party as a terrorist organisation and bulldozed the shrine.

    That is of course is the exact opposite of the Palestinian approach to their terrorists – they memorialise them in prayers andplace names and the government doesn’t condemn them, but rather sponsors them.

    EvShow I am not going to distract this thread with minute detail over Sabra and Shatila, other than to say that the massacre was carried out by Christians in response to a bombing of their headquarters, and that the Israelis should not have believed the reasons given for allowing them into the camp, and should have supervised them better. I don’t buy the wilder conspiracy theories that the Israelis condoned or directed what happened. When they did find out what was happening, they stopped it.

  130. Hi Marek,

    While it’s true that Regev acknowledged that the Hamas sponsored rocket attacks ceased, there are other ways of breaching cease-fires…I reckon it’s nigh on impossible to work out from here who really breached it first.

    Also lets not forget that rocket attacks didn’t cease completely, as the Government of the region, it was Hamas’ responsibility to ensure all attacks stopped and to prosecute those who continued them…I wonder how much genuine effort they made to do so ?

    As to Baruch Goldstein, yes he’s an example of an extreme far-right Jewish nutcase, who no doubt is/was supported by other far-right nutcases, but unlike Hamas’ terrorists he wasn’t sponsored by his Government nor hailed as a hero or martyr by it.

    It’s also interesting to note that his ‘shrine’ was bulldozed following the passing of a law to prohibit monuments to terrorists….I wonder if Hamas will pass any such law ?

    I don’t think he is a relevant example to this thread..You’ll always have individual psychos who will commit murder, the question being wether they are officially supported by their government or not, thats the difference between Goldstein and Hamas terrorists.

    I’ve tried to access the second link but I get an error message…

  131. SB, you mean you don’t want to get distracted from calling all Palestinians murderers by the minor detail that the IDF armed and allowed a bunch of facsists into a refugee camp of mainly women and children? (as just one example) And therefore undermine your claim that the state of Israel just wants peace if not for those “terrorists” next door?
    Of course you don’t buy into though, those details are hardley going to crop up the news sites you seem to take as gospel now is it? That would clearly defeat the purpose of the site above (and likely the others you get the news from), and that purpose is of course to paint Israel as a pertetual victim so they can continue aggression and land theft in the name of “self-defence” that narrow minded fools like you believe, until Palestinians have been ethnicly cleansed from the area for good.
    As for Palestinians wanting to drive all Jews into the see, when the secular Fatah party was at the head of the National Liberation movement, before they were currupted, they called for a one state solution, where Jews were able to live as well. I guess that fact gets in the way of your argument as well huh?

  132. EvShow, as noted above I disagree with your views on Sabra and Shatila. This issue is irrelevant to the present discussion.

    More relevant is how we might stop the violence and move forward to a peaceful solution. In the hope of discussing something of practical value I have said what I think needs to happen, but you have ignored that.

    when the secular Fatah party was at the head of the National Liberation movement, before they were corrupted, they called for a one state solution, where Jews were able to live as well. I guess that fact gets in the way of your argument as well huh?

    Although favoured by the Palestinians and their supporters one state solution is not a real possibility. It is a cynical attempt to create an entity in which muslims will rule Jews.

  133. Hey GavinM,

    No, the rocket attacks did not stop completely.
    I believe there were another 5 per month after the ceasefire.
    Israel itself did not consider this too much of a problem as there was evidence that Hamas was chasing down those responsible.
    Like you, I wonder about their level of enthusiasm for the job.
    Still, they did get the rocket situation under control and nobody can deny that.

    As for Barry Goldstein, I brought him up as a counterpoint to the issue of the murderer Kuntar.
    Reviewing my comment of above, I see that I didn’t make that connection explicit.
    My bad.
    The essential issue is that I get real shitty when people like SB place all the blame on the occupied Palestinians whilst spruiking the sanctity of Israel.
    There seems to be no room for criticism of Israel and that’s preposterous.

    BTW, as a postscript to the Sabra and Shatila massacre, let’s not forget that that an Israeli Commission of enquiry into the 36 hour blood bath in Lebanon was far more willing to apportion responsibility to the IDF and, as Defense Minister, Ariel Sharon.

    Historical revisionists like SB will have us believe that the IDF were guilty of nothing more than being too trusting and not keeping an eye on their mates.
    Happily, we have access to the facts that can expose these sorts of deception.

    Cheers.

  134. Marek:

    My bad.

    Your bad was not acknowledging the different ways Israel and the Palestinians treat their terrorists. The Israelis bulldozed Goldstein’s shrine. The Palestinians glorify their mass-murderers.

    The essential issue is that I get real shitty when people like SB place all the blame on the occupied Palestinians whilst spruiking the sanctity of Israel.
    There seems to be no room for criticism of Israel and that’s preposterous.

    I can’t help your general shittyness as I am not guilty as charged. I have criticised the Israeli support for new settlement building a couple of times on this thread. My main point is that the Palestinians behave very much worse than the Israelis in deliberately targeting civilians. This has nothing to do with ‘sanctity’ and everything to do with the gutless practice of legitimising murder as ‘resistance’.

  135. The Israelis bulldozed Goldstein’s shrine. ” – SB

    SB, they did later (years later) as, like with the IDF t-shirts, it was becoming an embarrassment.

    What is interesting is that, despite your suggestions, Goldstein was celebrated as a hero and a martyr for what he did. The oft suggested idea that he, and his actions, were broadly condemned at the time is a retrospective construct.

    My ‘favourite’ item of Goldstein memorabilia was the commemorative Baruch Goldstein wine that was available for a few years after the massace.

    It was, I believe, a red.

  136. Michael the fact that the Israelis bulldozed the Goldstein shrine puts them light-years ahead of the Palestinians, who celebrate their terrorists and elect them to power.

  137. Again, your aversion to the facts is disappointing. I don’t know if it’s ignorance or disingenuousness. My experience with the stridently pro-Israel is that is a calculated ignorance – they have no interest in knowing and when told, show no interest in anything that might challenge cherished shibboleths.

    The PA held and still holds many Palestinians in jail for attacks on Israelis. Throughout the early part of the PAs existence the Israeli Govt praised the security role of the PA. Do you remember the Israeli attack on Jericho a year or two back? They busted out of jail, some Palestinians they decided they wanted.

  138. No need to educate me on the revolving door Palestinian ‘jail’ process Michael.

    The difference between us is that while I am prepared to criticise Israeli shortcomings, you are not even prepared to criticise the targeting and killing of civilians by the Palestinians.

    Most of the others on your side of the argument have at least had the decency to do this, but not you.

  139. No need to educate me on the revolving door Palestinian ‘jail’ process Michael.” – SB

    Well, given the fact that you explicitly stated that Palestinians only “memorialise them in prayers andplace names and the government doesn’t condemn them, but rather sponsors them”, clearly you did.

    And now you backtrack to a “revolving door”. Those prisoners that I’d mentioned at Jericho – had been there since 2001. Happy to continue your education.

    But we aren’t comparing apples with apples are we? Yes, the PA jails Palestinains. And yes, Israel is very, very efficient in jailing Palestinians it evensuspects of committing acts of terror. But what about Israel jailing Israelis who attack or kill Palestinians? Guess what?, that amazing efficiency suddenly evaporates! Hundreds of Palestinian children have been shot dead (or blown up) by Israeli forces in the last decade. Number of soldiers in jail for the murder of Palestinians? – 0.

    And I’m so sorry I hadn’t noticed your searing critique of Israeli crimes. I must have missed it amongst the endless sweeping generalisations that dehumanise Palestinians,

    “the Palestinians, who celebrate their terrorists and elect them to power.”

    “favoured by the Palestinians….. It is a cynical attempt to create an entity in which muslims will rule Jews.”

    “the Palestinian approach to their terrorists – they memorialise them in prayers andplace names and the government doesn’t condemn them, but rather sponsors them”

    “the Palestinians to renounce their policy of murder”

    “the Palestinian policy of murder.”

    “the Palestinian Jew murder policy.”

    “the Palestinians do not want peace”

    “The Palestinians will never agree to a two state solution because, for theological reasons, they can’t allow Israel to exist as a Jewish state.”

    No, wait. I’m wrong, I found it! SBs stunning critique of 40 years of illegal ocupation, theft, murder, torture and violation of the GCs, IHL –
    The main problems I have with the Israeli side are the continued establishment of illegal settlements, seemingly with government approval, and with the religious right generally.

    Yes, ‘seemingly’!! What a penetrating gaze that SB has.

    Look upon this and weep all you whimpy lefty terror loving apologists for Hamas Jew-murderers.

  140. Touche Michael, touche.

    I think that SB is actually ignorant. If you look at the site he provided for Kuntar, it’s hardly likely to be brimming with information that could cast unfavourable light on Israeli actions or acknowledge an occupation. And from memory, I think SB has actually live in Israel? correct me if I’m wrong SB.
    The Israeli media and education is very much revionist – teaching things like “and land without a people…” and that the Palestinians just up and left placed like Dir Yassen, not that there was a mascre with the intent of causing enough terror to make them flee. And the media is never going to acknowledge that the various peace talks have broken down because Israel has goaded Hamas or Fatah into attacking. SB is just as brain washed as most of the people that live there.

    Apart from all the one-sidedness SB shows, i think the truely stunning aspect is what he acknowledges, yet cant understand what that means.

    SB, you acknowledge that there is continued illigel settlements, and I’m sure you’re aware that those, along with the Jew’s only roads and the Apartheid wall are causing even further Bantunisation of the West Bank, yet you still seem to believe that Israel have and have always had some intention of giving the Palestinians a viable nation of their own!
    Seriously, if Israel only acts out of good will, self defence, the interests of peace and a two state solution, please tell me how these illegal settlements, and what comes with them (house demolitions) brings us closer to peace and two states?

  141. Michael, your hypocrisy is outstanding! You criticise Israelis for defending themselves against Palestinian murderers, but are unable to even once condemn the Palestinian tactic of murder.

    The Palestinian tactics aren’t a case of one hothead going over the top. Almost every one of the thousands of deaths they cause is out and out murder. Almost every death the Israelis cause is as a result of defending themselves or arresting or targeting murderers. The Palestinian deaths are almost entirely the fault of gutless terrorists who use their own civilians as shields.

    Your stinking hypocrisy is clearly illustrated by your condemnation of Baruch Goldstein for doing exactly what the Palestinians do in every action against Israel.

    I suppose you have an ‘eyes wide shut’ policy to Palestinians when they murder each other, as in the Hamas killing spree against Fatah in the aftermath of the recent Gaza war.

    At least I am even handed in criticising equivalent acts on both sides. You are a sad little troll. You keep repeating the same mantra and are completely incapable of objectivity.

    Somehow your twisted mind you can’t bring you to denounce murder of as a tactic. But once you allow murder as a means to achieve political outcomes you are rolling back the limits on human depravity in the battlefield. It then becomes a debate about the justness of the cause. So long as Michael thinks you have a good cause their are no limits to your blood-lust. Michael, you are taking us back to the dark ages.

    In the Jericho case, under great duress, the Palestinians imprisoned Fatah prisoners only after pressure was put on them to do so.

    In this case the PFLP prisoners were held under US & European supervision precisely because of the revolving door policy of the Palestinians. When the foreign soldiers left their posts in fear of their lives, the Israelis moved in to take the murderous PFLP terrorists as prisoners.

    Sadly your closed mind is tightly locked, excluding all inconvenient facts and any semblance of reason. It is far more secure than any prison. Hence your disfiguring moral bankruptcy.

  142. EvShow:

    I think that SB is actually ignorant. If you look at the site he provided for Kuntar, it’s hardly likely to be brimming with information that could cast unfavourable light on Israeli actions or acknowledge an occupation. And from memory, I think SB has actually live in Israel? correct me if I’m wrong SB.

    You’re wrong EvShow. Never been there.

    I linked you to an article by the victim’s mother. Sorry. I thought you had some semblance of humanity about you.

    And the media is never going to acknowledge that the various peace talks have broken down because Israel has goaded Hamas or Fatah into attacking.

    So now the excuse is that the Israelis made the Palestinians do it. Like Sharon visiting the Temple Mount. Only in the mind of a psychopath would that justify for a killing spree.

    SB, you acknowledge that there is continued illigel settlements, and I’m sure you’re aware that those, along with the Jew’s only roads and the Apartheid wall are causing even further Bantunisation of the West Bank, yet you still seem to believe that Israel have and have always had some intention of giving the Palestinians a viable nation of their own!
    Seriously, if Israel only acts out of good will, self defence, the interests of peace and a two state solution, please tell me how these illegal settlements, and what comes with them (house demolitions) brings us closer to peace and two states?

    We will never finally know if Israel will allow the Palestinians a state as the Palestinians never allow the negotiations to get that far. Certainly at the camp David/Taba talks the Israelis offered a contiguous West Bank. The Bantustan characterisation of their offer was a lie pure and simple.

    You know that I have criticised Israel for the illegal settlements and suggested that in return for Palestinian renunciation of violence Israel immediately stops building further settlements and outposts. This is the only real way forward. I can’t see what problem you have with this.

  143. My apologies SB, it must have been that NOB guy that had lived in Israel.

    There is nothing wrong with reading about and having a sense of despair about these stories, however I doubt the site you provided is even handed. Which leads me to believe that you get all your information from sites with a pro-Israel position. Does this site contain information about Sabra, Shatila, Dir Yassen, the constant house demolitions? Does it portray Palestinians as human beings and therefore equal to Israelis in terms of deserving human rights? or does it only focus on Israeli’s as victims and Palestinians as “Jew Murderers”, and by doing so, allow people like you to justify every atrocity Israel commits on Palestinians in the name of “self-defence”?
    You say that Sabra and Shatila are not relevant, however they are, these incidents (along with many others) demonstate a history of IDF and Israeli agression against Palestinians, (before Hamas were even around) and therefore a history of prefering to terrorise the Palestinians into leaving so that Israel doesn’t need to provide them with a state. Which is exactly the point – Israel doesn’t have any intention of giving Palestinians a viable state, whether they renounce violence of not. And as Michael mentioned above, sitting around singing peace songs isn’t going to get them anywhere. Pacifist action didnt get rid of Apartheid, it didnt get rid of the British from India, it didnt get the US out of anywhere (too many to mention) and it hasn’t done much for Aboriginal rights here in Australia. So whilst nobody wants to see dead civilians of on either side, you’re argument is essentially that the Palestinains should do nothing, and let the world turn away whilst the IDF continue to terroise them, the state continue to incroach on more and more land, and the Ideological settlers to make it impossible for the Palestinians to live in the few areas Israel permits within their borders, until they have nothing. And that is an argument that the no decent person can tolerate.

  144. shit, sorry for the lack of white space and pharagraphs above… im busy as at work as well.

  145. You say that Sabra and Shatila are not relevant, however they are, these incidents (along with many others) demonstate a history of IDF and Israeli agression against Palestinians, (before Hamas were even around) and therefore a history of prefering to terrorise the Palestinians into leaving so that Israel doesn’t need to provide them with a state.

    The reason I think Sabra and Shatila, which happened 25 years ago, and Deir Yassin which happened in 1948 are irrelevant is not that I think Israel did nothing wrong. Clearly in both cases it did. They are irrelevant to the issue of what can be done now to get to a peaceful solution.

    And as Michael mentioned above, sitting around singing peace songs isn’t going to get them anywhere.

    So are you saying that the Palestinians should continue their current “resistance”?

    The only way out of this mess is a renunciation of violence, the ending of settlement building and negotiations which will inevitably involve compromise on both sides.

    This is an issue where the history is relevant. In the sixty years since Israel’s creation the Palestinians and their allies have used the tactics of violence. It has resulted in the killing of thousands and misery for millions. It has resulted in the Palestinians having less land than they will ever get now. How many more generations of misery do you want to inflict on both sides?

  146. Michael, your hypocrisy is outstanding……” – SB

    Thankyou you for that fact-free rant.

    Though you are right…..if the starting assumptions are that Israeli actions are “defending themselves” and Palestinian actions are “the Palestinian Jew murder policy”, then your conclusions are sound.

    Whether that comes within cooee of “evenhanded” is another matter.

  147. http://palsolidarity.org/2009/03/5324 shows some more of that “self-defence” and “restraint” Israel is so well know for.

    Killing of thousands and misery for millions? Yes, for Palestinians. Seriously, how many Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinians? a fraction of that of Palestinians. Operation Cast Lead is just another massacre, like Shatila, Sabra and Deir Yassan that are relevant because they demonstrate that in fact it has been Israel that have in fact been the party using the tactics of violence throughout the 60 years of occupation. They killed civilians when when they first arrived and nothing about their tactics have changed, Yet SB still manages to blame Palestinians, an occupied people for the violence because sometimes they retaliate.
    You can sit there in the comfort and safety of your Australian home and spew garbage through the internet about how “They always have a choice”, but i bet if it was your house that was demolished, your kids raped or shot by some goon in an IDF uniform, your baby blown up by an air strike, your water being stolen so some ideological settlers can have green lawns and swimming pools, your olive trees being dug up or burnt, your power being cut (not to mention much less access to the interent) your surviving family members starving because of a seige, your friend being burnt by WP, your daughter that died in labour because the soldiers at the checkpoint find it more amusing than to let her get to the hospital, and you who was beaten up by settlers whilst the IDF looked on for trying to protect your kids you would be whistling a pretty fucking different tune SB.

  148. Michael:

    Whether that comes within cooee of “evenhanded” is another matter.

    And your even-handedness is demonstrated exactly how?

  149. EvShow, thanks for your hyperbolic rant. I take it that it was just another putrid way of saying that you don’t want Palestinian terrorists to stop their ‘resistance’.

    Why don’t you want the violence to end?

  150. And your even-handedness is demonstrated exactly how?” – SB

    I don’t recall blowing my own trumpet in that regard.

    I actually consider myself quite biased – in the cause of justice.

  151. I think i’m pretty biased in the cause of justice as well SB, sorry i can’t be as “neutral” as you.

    I actually said I don’t agree with the tactics of Hamas SB. However, i am merely saying that if it were you under occupation, and tried to list what it’s actually like, that your so called “morals” my just abandon you.

    I wont the violence to stop, but I am not racist enough to believe that only one side is the cause of violence, and I am not racist enough to discount a secular democracy which you have done already.

  152. And of course i thought you might want to see some video footage of the Israeli police, those gods of morality act in “self-defence” by shooting that unarmed but highly dangerous terrorist; Tristan Anderson and then continue firing tear gas canisters at them and those crafty Red Cresent “Jew murderers” as they try to help said fallen “terrorist”. I’m sure it would have you jumping with glee SB…

  153. Michael:

    And your even-handedness is demonstrated exactly how?” – SB

    I don’t recall blowing my own trumpet in that regard.

    Of course you didn’t. You merely criticised me for a lack of even-handedness. You need a singular lack of intellectual integrity to do that.

    EvShow the International Stupidity Movement is barely a cut above PETA in the most shameful organisations on the planet stakes. Just keep toeing the party line, stoking the violence from your comfortable position in Australia. You’re a true hero!

  154. You sit there in comfort demanding all and sundry condemn all Palestinian “Jew Murder” in a not to subtle method of trying to establish anti-semitism against your one brave soul, declaring that Israel don’t commit aggression – all Israeli violence is purely self defence, and you have been shown repeately that this is not the case, but yet you argue. Then you are provided with video footage of Israeli police attacking (with what will probably turn out to be lethal force) an unarmed protester, clearly proving how full of shit you “self-defence” argument is, and how much of a hypercrite you because you demonize anyone that frames Palestinian violence of any sort as “resistence” and you can’t even bring yourself to admit maybe you are just a little (at least) wrong, and that maybe the Israel police and military do act out of pure aggression sometimes, and that you maybe you should condemn this act of violence in the same way you demand everyone else condemn “terrorism”. But you can’t can you? you just don’t have the guts to admit you’re wrong, so you just bandy around a few more standard phrases and insults. You’re shown someone who has actually gone to the place of conflict to find out for himself and stand up for the oppressed (something you would never do quite clearly), and will probably pay for it with his life, and you insult him? And you accuse others of having a lack of humanity?! of being a sad little troll?!
    Pathetic SB, you’re truly pathetic.

    In other news, Bebe’s opening address contains nothing of a two state solution, but I’m sure it’s at the back of his mind somewhere SB, because you just know Israel wants to give Palestinians a viable state…

  155. Of course you didn’t. You merely criticised me for a lack of even-handedness. You need a singular lack of intellectual integrity to do that.” – SB

    You’ve continually made broad and unsupported assertions that I’ve critiqued, not on the basis that they fail to be “even-handed”, but that they don’t tally with verifiable reality, eg Palestinian prisoners.

    Though your later summary of your own position as “even handed” did warrant a snort of derision.

    People whose stock-in-trade appears to be vilification should tread warily around ‘integrity’.

  156. Michael:

    You’ve continually made broad and unsupported assertions that I’ve critiqued, not on the basis that they fail to be “even-handed”…..

    Micahael:

    Though you are right…..if the starting assumptions are that Israeli actions are “defending themselves” and Palestinian actions are “the Palestinian Jew murder policy”, then your conclusions are sound.

    Whether that comes within cooee of “evenhanded” is another matter.

    EvShow I have absolutely no sympathy for the St Pancake worshipers of the ISM.

    Below is an earlier statement I made and you continually skirt around:

    You know that I have criticised Israel for the illegal settlements and suggested that in return for Palestinian renunciation of violence Israel immediately stops building further settlements and outposts. This is the only real way forward. I can’t see what problem you have with this.

    You seem to have a problem with taking practical steps to end the violence. What do you suggest as the first steps to a solution?

  157. “<Whether that comes within cooee of “evenhanded” is another matter.” – Me

    That was my “snort of derision”.

  158. Nice tags there!

  159. Apart from derision do you have anything constructive to say? Like whether you agree that the first step to peace is the renunciation of violence and the cessation of settlement building, or perhaps some other approach.

  160. I didn’t skirt around it, i made reference to how naive you are to believe that in the face of these settlements that Israel actually plans on giving Palestinians a viable state.

    What you skirt around is condemning Israeli violence even though you demand everyone condemn all forms of Palestinian violence. I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of denouncing the term “resistance” whilst declaring all Israeli violence “self-defence”.

    I said i had no intention of actually debating you SB, I just enjoy blowing holes through the arguments Zionists use to justify their actions.
    But since you asked:
    A first step towards a two state solution would be to actually engage Hamas in talks, they exist, they are the most popular Palestinian party, so Israel needs to deal with it, because they aren’t just going to go away, not matter how much Israel wishes they would. Hamas have also offered to talk in relation to long term peace agreements but Israel has so far failed to acknowledge that. Also, lift the seige of Gaza and remove ALL illegal settlements, and whatever else is within the West Bank that denies continuity of land, including the Apartheid wall.

    Somehow, i can’t see this happening though SB.
    And for the record, I am for a one state solution, full right of return etc. This does not mean “Jews into the sea” as most Zionists like to pretend, but a secular democracy. One person, one vote, which is what we are told is the highest form of democracy, so cant see why that is a problem.

  161. I didn’t skirt around it, i made reference to how naive you are to believe that in the face of these settlements that Israel actually plans on giving Palestinians a viable state.

    What you skirt around is condemning Israeli violence even though you demand everyone condemn all forms of Palestinian violence. I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of denouncing the term “resistance” whilst declaring all Israeli violence “self-defence”.

    I said i had no intention of actually debating you SB, I just enjoy blowing holes through the arguments Zionists use to justify their actions.
    But since you asked:
    A first step towards a two state solution would be to actually engage Hamas in talks, they exist, they are the most popular Palestinian party, so Israel needs to deal with it, because they aren’t just going to go away, not matter how much Israel wishes they would. Hamas have also offered to talk in relation to long term peace agreements but Israel has so far failed to acknowledge that. Also, lift the seige of Gaza and remove ALL illegal settlements, and whatever else is within the West Bank that denies continuity of land, including the Apartheid wall.

    Somehow, i can’t see this happening though SB.
    And for the record, I am for a one state solution, full right of return etc. This does not mean “Jews into the sea” as most Zionists like to pretend, but a secular democracy. One person, one vote, which is what we are told is the highest form of democracy, so cant see why that is a problem.

  162. EvShow I take it from your circumlocutions that you don’t propose a cessation of violence as a first step.

    A one state solution is a joke. The Palestinians have spent decades suffusing their culture with anti-semitism. It disfigures their textbooks, sermons and popular culture. It is completely irrational to expect Jews to submit to that type of murderous racism again.

  163. Also, EvShow Hamas is essentially a religious organisation. It is impossible for it to agree to a secular state. It’s response to the more secular Fatah party has been murder. Hamas has engaged in two killing sprees against Fatah since it was elected, and clearly no longer rules on any democratic basis.

  164. Whatever SB, as with standard zionists you are full of crap and racism about what Palestinians have been doing since they came under occupation. It’s not worth my time talking to close minded bigoted dick bags when there are actually people in the world who can see through the zionist propaganda.

  165. Propaganda and indoctrination like this hey Ev…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers

    and this:

  166. Curses, didn’t get all of that first link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers

  167. Hmm…Still didn’t paste the whole link, that’s wierd…

  168. EvShow:

    It’s not worth my time talking to close minded bigoted dick bags when there are actually people in the world who can see through the zionist propaganda.

    This is incoherent. Clichéd insults and mangled language indicate immaturity more than anything else. More thought and less emotion might help.

Leave a Reply

Please log in using one of these methods to post your comment:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s