That’s a pretty long line of dominoes

One problem I have with veterans’ parades is that there’s no distinction made between those who actually “defended our freedoms” and those who clearly (or not so clearly) didn’t.

There was a band of veterans who just marched past who’d fought for the French in Algeria in the early 1960s, for example. I’m not sure how that kept anyone “free”, least of all Australia.

And why are scouts marching?

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108 responses to “That’s a pretty long line of dominoes

  1. I appreciate your sentiments and found it difficult to watch a group of very young scouts who were walking along (not even remotely marching) and talking, drinking from water bottles, laughing, etc just as though they were taking a walk down to the beach, or the park. It seemed worse than pointless to have them there.

  2. The ranks are thinning. However, whoever they get to fill them out should at least be dressed neatly and act respectfully.

  3. Uniforms.
    It’s all about uniforms.
    If you’ve got one wear it in a parade, that’s what they are for.

  4. How did fighting at Galipoli “defend our freedumbs” (and why are young australian “journalists” using hat americanism)?

    Did Turkey declare war on us? Did they lay seige to our societal freedoms and proclaim bounty on our citizens? Did Turkish forces attack our Northern shores? Where’s the “defending freedom” part? Didn’t WE invade them? GHranted, it was a disaster of an invasion, but I’m certain WE were the bad guys here.

    Mourn, if you must. Promote “Remembrance”, by all means… but “defending our freedomz”? Please.

    Shall I assume Turkey also remember this day, where their troops genuinely DID “defend” their homes and people from the invading hordes?

  5. Weltall:

    How did fighting at Galipoli “defend our freedumbs”

    Short answer: You are here and free to be dumb – a freedom you obviously relish.

    I’m certain WE were the bad guys here.

    Sure you are. Pig-ignorance and emotional volatility will do that to you.

    Turkey was in that war because it allied itself with Germany and then allowed its ports to be used as a base for German naval attacks on Odessa.

    As you would not be aware, alliances are particularly important to Australia – remember the Battle of the Coral Sea? Probably not.

    Soldiers who fought for their country should be honoured. No sign of that here.

    One Vietnam vet interviewed this morning was still upset at the vile hostility visited on returning veterans. Such is the gutless left. Thankfully we don’t rely on them to defend our freedoms.

  6. “Defending our freedom” is the most insufferable of American buzz-words that has migrated here. The ANZACs were fighting for the king and the British Empire, out of a misguided sense of honour and glory. There is nothing noble or honourable about Gallipoli. It’s just sad.

  7. One Vietnam vet interviewed this morning was still upset at the vile hostility visited on returning veterans.

    FromWartime (Official Magazine of the Australian War Memorial) Issue 45, pages 10-13:

    It is often forgotten that each battalion returning from Vietnam had a Welcome Home march. There were 16 in all, and they were all well attended by enthusiastic crowds – and largely protest-free. Even before troops from the newly returned 1RAR took part in the first Welcome Home march in Sydney, in June 1966, Vietnam veterans were being given a particular welcome. Two months earlier, during the ANZAC Day march in Sydney, a small number of Vietnam veterans marched with Malaya, Korea and Borneo veterans, and received a special cheer.

  8. Unlike a lot who comment here, I am an x digger and proud of it. Fortunately due to medical reasons I did not go to Vietnam however, the myth that is spread around by righteous right wing scum bags that our troops were treated like lepers and spat on is a load of bollocks.Some were spat on for sure, just like some footy players are at any oval in Australia..

    But of course the real truth here is, the sons of the fucking conservative establishment never went to Vietnam did they? They were all at home quaffing down champers wilst the poor working class lefty scum were doing all the fighting.No change there!

    Right wingers make me wanna puke, they are gutless yellow belly shit bags, now that is more like the truth.

  9. Have another drink Phill. And send off a note to the ABC not to interview any more ‘righteous right wing scum bags’.

  10. WWI was a spat between the imperial powers of the time, and Australia was only involved as the Brits needed some cannon-fodder from the colonies. ‘Freedom’ had nothing to do with it. Of course, to observe as much doesn’t necessarily mean that troops weren’t courageous, or that they shouldn’t be remembered. It simply means that we should be mature enough to can the sentimental bullshit in favour of the facts.

    SB, it’s pretty well-established that the myth of Vietnam vets being spat on by hippies is a crock. In many cases, the hippies sided with the vets and draftees against the powers that were.

  11. THR I was around at the time. The idiot fringe of the left frequently hassled returning soldiers. One stupid bint famously daubed red paint on some of them.

    Having a racist fool as prime minister at the end of the Vietnam war didn’t help matters either.

  12. Zoot, thanks for that rejoinder to the yearly claims of ‘the despicable left and their vile hostility’ towards returning soldiers.

    It’s certainly true that the later returnees found themselves coming home to a country that was broadly sick and tired of the Vietnam War, but it was primarily a general atmosphere of protest and dismay, rather than personal attacks on soldiers.

  13. “Of course, to observe as much doesn’t necessarily mean that troops weren’t courageous, or that they shouldn’t be remembered.”

    Although, if you’re going to just commemorate military people for the horrors they’ve gone through, and ignore the why, by that logic we might as well let Japanese, Italian and German veterans march. They might have been fighting for evil regimes, but they probably had as horrific a time of it as our fighting men and women, and individual enemy soldiers probably displayed courage too.

    But obviously we don’t let them march.

    We all know why.

  14. True Jeremy, but I was trying to parenthesis that issue somewhat, as otherwise we’ll get bogged down in a derailed thread.

    My main point was that WWI was something that Australia should never have been involved in, as it was a fight between the imperial powers of Europe.

  15. SB I wouldn’t normally respond to your asinine twaddle but suffice to say, yes I did have a drink this morning right after the march, went down a treat.

    Your recollections of the aftermath of the Vietnam conflict are somewhat different to mine,and of course some of the other commentators here, but of course you weren’t born then were you? Because If you were, you wouldn’t talk such utter shite.Of course I could be wrong, and you are just shrilling the usual dribble that comes from the thoughts of RWDB’s as per usual.

    Any subject period, and you are as predictable as the sun coming up in the morning, change the record, right wing delusional thought process is out of favor of late, no fucker is listening.

  16. “soldiers ill-treated/spat on”

    pics or it didnt happen

  17. Phill:

    Your recollections of the aftermath of the Vietnam conflict are somewhat different to mine

    Yes.

    I merely noted the recollections, broadcast on ABC radio on ANZAC Day, of a soldier who served in Vietnam and who was still upset at the treatment of him and his fellow soldiers on their return.

    You can call him all the names you like, but that only demeans you.

    of course you weren’t born then were you?

    Of course I was. I’m 54.

    Of course I could be wrong

    Of course, you are.

    The fact is that many on the left were openly supporting the enemy. At UNSW the left brought out PRG representatives to speak on campus. “Ho-Ho-Ho Chi Min, dare to struggle dare to win” was their chorus. Treasonous fuckwits one and all.

    When Australian troops returned they were called “Baby killers”, they were abused, they were spat on, they did have red paint thrown on them. I saw it on TV at the time, and in the papers. There is plenty of testimony on the web about this.

    The left should not be allowed to write their treasonous gutless behaviour out of history.

  18. And another view might be that these mild expressions of opprobrium are 1) relatively insignficant compared to the sactions that might apply under IL for illegal acts, and 2) to be somewhat applauded as the acts of an aroused citizenry motivated by the deisre to end bloodshed caused by highly questionable military action, informed by the lessons of WWII that individual soldiers have a duty of conscience and can’t hide behind ‘I was just doing my duty/following orders’. Something the world could do with a lot more of, one might think.

  19. I suspect that some people have conflated the experiences of Americans returning from Vietnam with the situation in Australia, a bit like those Australians who think our constitution gives us the right to bear arms.
    In fact, during the Vietnam era abuse (which overall was very minor) went both ways. I copped more than one earful because I had long hair and “should be over there”. The poor old biddies who attacked me couldn’t know that the army had actually declined my services.

  20. they did have red paint thrown on them

    No SB, they didn’t. A lone protester smeared herself in red paint and ran in front of soldiers from 1RAR marching in their Welcome Home parade in Sydney in June 1966. There’s probably photos on the Australian War Memorial web site. Once again, from “Welcome Home”, Wartime (Official Magazine of the Australian War Memorial) Issue 45:

    Nadine Jensen’s protest at 1RAR’s march, for example, has assumed epic proportions in some veterans’ minds. Although she acted alone, and by her own admission was aiming her protest at politicians, her protest has come to represent for many veterans the rejection they felt was an integral part of their homecoming. More recent comments by some veterans demonstrate the degree to which the event has been blown out of proportion

    Look for the article, it really is very enlightening.

  21. I find it distasteful that anyone uses ANZAC day or the men who fought and died (Regardless of why they were fighting – that’s a matter of politics and whether we should have been fighting or not does not mitigate the deaths of those who did) to push a political point.

    Yesterday wasn’t the day for it, regardless of the political stripe you wear.

  22. Well… yes and no. Inasmuch as the sending of troops overseas is an inherently political issue, it’s a bit disingenuous to attempt to pretend otherwise.

  23. SB What the is really happening here is, you and the rest of the right wing cracks jacks of the world who have selective memories, will use any propaganda exercise to smear the left because they were right about the Vietnam conflict and your mob were wrong.

    I could care less what one individual soldier has said about the conflict, some people believe as you no doubt do, the My Lai massacre was so much left wing hot air, of course history has proved different.

    You can promote this line of bullshit as much as you like, it isn’t going to change a jot.As for the left not being able to write treasonous gutless behavior out of history, you sir are having a laugh. It is your side that has most of the mortgage on propaganda and bullshit, I mean your mob make it an art form.

    I can never forget the fairfax press in the sixties putting a cartoon in the paper depicting an Australian soldier pulling a rickshaw with a Viet Cong soldier accompanied by a blond Australian girl, like I said you fuckers wanna make me puke.

    Some soldiers were mistreated but it was by a few fuck heads no doubt, the type of agent provocateurs your slimy side of politics have used since the beginning of time. But not as mistreated by the lying syphlitic filled politicians who fill the conservative party, who keep sending them to their phony wars.

    As for you being 54, what months?

  24. Zoot, you may think the abuse of returning troops was a minor matter. The evidence doesn’t seem to stack up that way. See here:

    The initial returning home parades for the troops were cancelled as they became a focus for the sometimes hostile public opposition to Australia’s involvement in the war. This opposition often turned to criticism of those who had given service there. There were large public demonstrations and many veterans felt personally betrayed by their country rather than supported and recognised for their sacrifices and actions.

    And how do you explain the fact that the official welcome home parade after the end of the war wasn’t held until 1987?

    I wonder why that gutless racist fuckWhitlam didn’t organise one? He probably had better things to do, like stopping the “fucking yellow balts” (as he called Vietnamese refugees) from entering the country.

    It wasn’t that the left hated soldiers. They loved the’ heroic’ Vietcong, the NVA and the Khmer Rouge. They hated only our soldiers.

    In these times, history is written by the left. Expect that this contemptible episode will be written out of the story by modern historians for whom facts are irrelevant and selling the appropriate (leftist) narrative is everything.

  25. Phill:

    you and the rest of the right wing

    You are making a few assumptions here. I am not right wing. I think things through issue by issue. Sometimes I agree with the leftist position, sometimes not. I have no respect for people who define themselves as leftists and then follow the lefty line on all issues. Leftist thought differs from normal thought in that regard.

  26. ” It wasn’t that the left hated soldiers. They loved the’ heroic’ Vietcong, the NVA and the Khmer Rouge. They hated only our soldiers.”

    Now that is fucking funny. “Heroic” Now I know your full of it. Well in the case of the NVA and Vietcong they were pretty heroic to their own people, after all they kicked a hyper power out of their country on a bowl of rice a day.

    SB Go away.

  27. SB you can insult my opinion on any issue and I will accept it with any spirit it is offered, I like a good punch up.

    But please don’t insult my intelligence. They don’t come any further to the right than you, but if that’s what you believe what can I say?

  28. Kinda proved my point there, didn’t you Phill.

  29. Phill:

    what can I say?

    What you should have said all along – nothing.

  30. “Inasmuch as the sending of troops overseas is an inherently political issue, it’s a bit disingenuous to attempt to pretend otherwise.”

    And that’s what you’re not understanding. Yesterday was not about sending troops overseas. It was about honouring those who didn’t come back, or those who came back with scars that will never heal.

  31. SB, I’m not sure the Vietnam Vets Counselling Service is the most objective source of information so I’d appreciate it if you could detail just which welcome home parades were cancelled.
    This page details some of the myths surrounding the Vietnam conflict. In part it says:

    The mass protests that many associate with the Vietnam era did not occur in Australian towns and cities until the 1970s after the withdrawal of troops had already begun.
    Associated with misunderstandings about the extent and longevity of opposition to the war is a widespread view that those who had served in Vietnam were denied recognition when they returned to Australia and that many veterans of the conflict were treated with hostility by the public.

  32. Zoot, that quote you put up about demos not starting until the 70s is delusional. Askin’s famous quip “run the bastards over” was in 1966 in reference to an anti-war demo.

    Its just shamelss revisionist history in action.

  33. “And that’s what you’re not understanding. Yesterday was not about sending troops overseas. It was about honouring those who didn’t come back, or those who came back with scars that will never heal.”

    That’s clearly not the case, hence the march, its participants, and this post.

    I think you’re thinking of Remembrance Day.

  34. ANZC day is also a day of remembrance – from Wikipedia:

    Anzac Day is a national day of remembrance in Australia and New Zealand, and is commemorated by both countries on 25 April every year to honour members of the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC) who fought at Gallipoli in Turkey during World War I. It now more broadly commemorates all those who died and served in military operations for the country. Anzac Day is also observed in the Cook Islands, Niue, Samoa and Tonga.

  35. Well, obviously, but it’s not just remembering the war dead or injured – it’s expanded to a commemoration of all the military do, and all who’ve served. Including the French. Who fought in Algeria. And those who possibly might in the future, like scouts. (?)

    As per the post.

  36. Zoot, that quote you put up about demos not starting until the 70s is delusional.

    Better take it up with the Dept of Veterans’ Affairs, it’s their website. Apparently they’re wasting your tax dollars (again).
    On the other hand it may be you who is deluded.

  37. “Its just shamelss revisionist history in action.”

    Too bloody right, and that’s what your M.O. is, where ever you happen to comment.

    This is not about one soldiers opinion on the aftermath of the Vietnam conflict, it’s the rights shabby attempt to apologise to the troops that were sent to a war on an all the way with L.B.J. mantra, by redirecting their guilt to a few hippy’s that may have spat on a few soldiers.In essence to ingratiate your selves with the poor sods that got sent to fight this dirty war. Most sane people know, and even for some in hindsight, this was an exercise in futility and its abject failure that the left warned about, came to pass.

    Over 50000 young American and over 500 Australians pushing up daisies, not to mention the millions of dead Vietnamese people and for what?

    But SB I will give you full marks for trying to defend the indefensible, the rights position hence yours, on the Vietnam conflict has been exposed for what it was. A hyper power got itself involved in a war about nationalism under the guise of anti communism, and the rest they say is history.But not your version of it.

  38. Phill, the fact is that the left sabotaged the war effort, their allies, the communists, took over and the people of South Vietnam have, as a result, endured 30 years of poverty, murder and oppression. Congratulations. You must be elated at this triumph of leftism!

    It didn’t have to be like that. South Korea was spared that outcome and prospered as South Vietnam should have done. Sadly in the case of Vietnam, the communists and their useful idiots in the west prevailed.

  39. “Well, obviously, but it’s not just remembering the war dead or injured – it’s expanded to a commemoration of all the military do, and all who’ve served. Including the French. Who fought in Algeria. And those who possibly might in the future, like scouts. (?)

    As per the post.”

    Yes, none of which precludes anyone from leaving their politics at the door. We have 364 days of the year to express our opinion as to whether those who served should have served where they did. Could we not just leave that stuff alone for two days?

  40. Do you really think it was “the left” (a nebulous term at best) that prevented victory in Vietnam, SB?

  41. Vernon it would be nice to think that they had no influence at all, but there was a bit more to it than that.

    Certainly a nation’s strength is sapped when the enemy is able to call on cadres within to propagandise for them. It came as no surprise that the pro-Soviet and Maoist left filled this role, and their lead was uncritically followed by other leftists.

    What is surprising is the unwillingness of the left to own the consequences of their actions. All we had was a round of back-slapping for having got the troops out, and very little examination of the plight of the Vietnamese.

    Saddest was the fate of South Vietnamese who were our allies in the war. They were targeted for killing by the victorious communists. Those that escaped got little help from their former ally, Australia. Whitlam saw to that.

  42. What utter claptrap.

  43. Fair enough shot at Whitlam, SB. But it was Menzies who took Australia into the war, and he had very little regard for the South Vietnamese government’s opinion on that.

    Do you have any opinions on the military strategy used in Vietnam? My opinion is that poor strategy was a greater factor than subversive elements at home.

    And finally, we lefties (I am a centre-left ex-conservative) are not the coherent, ideological army you imagine us to be. Nor, I assume, are the right.

  44. When I was a Scout more than 30 years ago we also marched behind the veterans and also attended the services. Remember this was a time when ANZAC day was no where near as popular as it is today. To this day I am not sure why we were included.

  45. Yes, none of which precludes anyone from leaving their politics at the door. We have 364 days of the year to express our opinion as to whether those who served should have served where they did. Could we not just leave that stuff alone for two days?” – Keri

    I understand what you mean Keri, and at one level you are right, but the idea that politics can be suspended for a day is fanciful.

    There is an intensely political aspect to these commemorative days. There are about constructing a culture around the idea of death in military campaigns. They are a promise that the dead won’t be forgotten and their death was not meaningless. Sounds nice, but the real aim is the future – that people will continue to accept the need sacrifice the lives of our young people.

    It’s all very political.

  46. Vernon, the tactics employed by the Yanks were poor. Australia worked better with the locals.

    The Tet offensive was seen by many as the turning point. But it was a highpoint for the North, and was subsequently rolled back. Maybe the tactics were improving

    Many in the South had fled the North when the communists took over. It is a shame they have had to endure so many years of tyranny under communist rule.

    Also, I know there are many species of leftist. There is a menagerie of different types around this place. There are people like Mondo who are usually quite reasonable on the one hand and fire-breathing hotheads like EvShow on the other. They all add interest to the discussion.

    People should approach matters issue by issue. Ideologues sacrifice their independence for the security blanket of their ideology. The right is mainly a figment of the left’s imagination. It is just a term to demonise anyone that disagrees with them.

  47. “The right is mainly a figment of the left’s imagination. It is just a term to demonise anyone that disagrees with them.”

    As is the “Left”, SB.

    “There is an intensely political aspect to these commemorative days. There are about constructing a culture around the idea of death in military campaigns. They are a promise that the dead won’t be forgotten and their death was not meaningless. Sounds nice, but the real aim is the future – that people will continue to accept the need sacrifice the lives of our young people.”

    Yes, and I object to that as well.

  48. I think you’re doing a bit of revisionism here yourself, SB.

    You suggest that lefties were falling over themselves in support of the Khmer Roughe – evidence please.

    Now to Vietnam. This is an important discussion, if only because it’s partly right-wing revisionism in Vietnam that has allowed the ongoing fiascos of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    There was no such thing as the ‘Vietcong’. It was the National Liberation Front. Like all of the Indochinese left, its ‘communism’ was notional, and its origins were in the push against French colonialism. The broader context at this time was one where Stalinism had been thoroughly discredited to all but a few die-hards, and socialist workers parties around the developed world were getting little traction. On the other hand, a whole variety of radical politics (such as feminism, but particularly anti-colonialism, in Cuba, Algeria, Indochina, and elsewhere) were gaining support around the world.

    Back to Vietnam. Having seized control of the North in the 50s, the NLF was not aligned with the Soviet bloc, and actually turned to the US for assistance. They were refused. The US instead back their guy in Saigon, who was every bit as tyrannical and murderous as these purported communists you are denouncing. The US (and others) hindered every opportunity for a peaceful settlement between North and South, and blocked every opportunity for self-determination on the part of the Vietnamese people. Shortly after, they invaded, on the pretext of cold war paranoia.

    The war actually enjoyed quite a bit of support in the US and Australia, at least initially, and the very small numbers of protestors were dismissed as a wacky fringe. It took many years before people in the US and Australia came to learn of the vast atrocities being committed against the Vietnamese people. By this time, public opinion had turned, and the respective eladers of Australia and the US had little choice but to withdraw troops.

    Before criticising leftist protestors, you should take a look at what actually happened in Vietnam. Kids are still born with defects, and mothers still have Agent Orange in their breastmilk. About 20% of the countryside was defoliated, and many hundreds of thousands were killed. Any crimes of ‘the left’ in Australia are absolutely trivial when compared to horror on this scale.

  49. S.B. The fact the South have labored under an oppressive regime is irrelevant to the reasons the war was prosecuted. It was engaged for what was the belief of the bed wetters on the right at the time,we were going to be over run by commies, reds under the beds, to stop the domino theory yada yada yada..

    With out dragging out the history of the conflict it was on more than one occasion the communists were prepared to have a free vote on the issue. Of course this was denounced by the Americans as nothing more than trickery on the communists part.

    Anyway what is your problem? At the end of the day the Americans and the Australians had had enough of the conflict, and the forces were withdrawn. The war could not be won. They dropped more tonnage of H.E. on Hanoi than all of WW2. And what did uncle Ho say? The Americans will have to learn to eat rice for a thousand years. He was right, and the American presidents and our own prime duffer in chief Menzies was wrong.

    For you to accuse the left of treason because they believed Vietnam should be left alone to settle who they wanted to rule, is nothing but sour grapes.I mean shit we haven’t even touched on the issue of conscription yet, which I am sure you are probably as “Gung Ho ” for as the war.

    Also being an x digger I can tell you, the results of this war will be felt for another generation,broken and maimed limbs can be fixed, PTSD and the other mental trauma that this total waste of time created, cannot.

    But I will be happy knowing this, most people agree with the fact the war was a total waste of time and a tragedy befitting a Greek play.And that is my side of the coin and not yours.

  50. Still waiting for the list of welcome home marches which were cancelled, SB.

  51. MENZIES the man who plunged Australia into the American war in Vietnam, did so like Howard to please his powerful friend America. The war is still going on with high rates of suicide and depression among Vietnam veterans. WE have charity bins around Australia for Vietnam veterans who are simply driven into the ranks of the impoverished.

  52. ” WE have charity bins around Australia for Vietnam veterans who are simply driven into the ranks of the impoverished.”

    Indeed we do. And now we will have a whole new generation of young men driven to insanity by capitalists wars. Iraq, Afghanistan, and possibly God forbid Pakistan are all in waiting to receive more of the flower of our youth.

    Still nothing will be allowed to get in the way of the myth of ” Pax Americana” Half the working class as per usual will sign their lives away on a contract designed for fools. It always has been and will always be so. The right wing control the propaganda machine called the media, and whilst they do, the carnage and the lies will continue unabated.

    But for mine, there just may be a glimmer of hope, with the financial crash still waiting to unfold its full fury and the world rocking on its very foundations with global warming etc and the other ills racking the planet bought on by the conservative scum bags, just maybe the working class are finally coming out of their comas.

  53. THR:

    You suggest that lefties were falling over themselves in support of the Khmer Roughe – evidence please.

    Our very own Cambodia expert, Ben Kiernan was a supporter, until 1978 when he finally acknowledged the truth about them. For more see The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979. Support for the Khmer Rouge at UNSW at that time was strong among leftist academics and students.

    Criticising me for referring to the “Vietcong”, the common name of the NLF is semantic bullshit.

    The stuff about the destruction of the country is important. It is sad that the North insisted on invading the South and trying to inflict communism on the South. It is sad that they used terrorism and murder to carry out that policy. It is also trite to refer to the wrongs of only one side.

    At the end of the day the anti-war movement needs to look at what it achieved, not only in bringing their own soldiers home, but in the price paid by people who have had to live under the yoke of communist rule ever since.

    Phill, in terms of overall strategy, although the communists conquered South Vietnam and Cambodia, the dominoes stopped falling. I agree there were many tragic aspects to the war, I just don’t see the point of ignoring one side of the story for the sake of leftist ideology.

    Zoot:

    Still waiting for the list of welcome home marches which were cancelled, SB.

    I gave you a reference for the claim. You have given me nothing by way of refutation. Do your own homework, and while you’re at it, tell me why the official homecoming parade didn’t happen until 1987.

    The anti-war sentiment is all very well. The problem is that living under Nazism or communism or the Taliban is not nice, and sometimes you have to fight to avoid that happening. Diplomacy will only take you so far, no matter how low you bow to foreign despots, as Obama is about to find out.

  54. SB, you must have missed my quote from the Australian War Memorial Historians:

    It is often forgotten that each battalion returning from Vietnam had a Welcome Home march. There were 16 in all, and they were all well attended by enthusiastic crowds – and largely protest-free.

    I can find no evidence that any welcome home march was cancelled. Just making an assertion (one of your favourite tactics) does not make it true, no matter how much you wish it were true.
    As to why there was no overall parade until 1987, I guess we just had to wait for the commie loving left wing scum Hawke to get into power.

  55. ” I just don’t see the point of ignoring one side of the story for the sake of leftist ideology.”

    Then let us agree to disagree. You see it differently and that is what makes for interesting debate.

    Left wing ideology is no different than the right in as much as they will both use propaganda to further their own cause.I am old enough to know that all sides make bullshit a science, it is the very essence of the way society is run, always has, always will.

    At the end of the day, if you really think that the J. Howards or the K Rudds of the world really give a flying fuck about the likes of us, well we both need serious counseling.

    Peace.

  56. SB, your source on Cambodia is a dud, repeating the same anti-Chomsky tropes as the other right-wing fruitcakes.

    I mention that the ‘Vietcong’ were actually the NLF as this might give some readers a clue as to why ordinary Vietnamese actually supported them. In other words, Vietnamese had something from which they needed to be liberated.

    Also, are you aware that your hated Vietcong actually liberated Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge? And that ‘socialist’ Vietnam is decades ahead of Cambodia, which has remained capitalist since its liberation (in 1979)?

  57. zoot, I agree. Hawke was a truly great PM. Whitlam was …. not so good.

    Phill, if you’d read anything I had written here previously on Howard you would know I detest him as an absolutely loathsome creature every bit as racist as Whitlam and indecently dishonest. I’m still giving Rudd the benefit of the doubt, but things aren’t looking good.

    I have a dialectical view of discussion. It is better to let opposite views collide, unvarnished by the nuance and nicety of weasel words, and hope some insight emerges. Stirring the leftist possum is an honourable occupation.

    Cheers.

  58. So we agree that no Welcome Home marches were cancelled due to fears of protests?

  59. Don’t be a goose, zoot. That is not a reasonable conclusion to draw from the discussions so far. Why don’t you contribute something useful and provide a list of the welcome home marches after 1970.

  60. As far as I know there were no planned marches cancelled, but the brass eventually took the considered view that it might be better to let ‘the boys’ come home quietly.

    Perahps they were worried that they might throw a ‘welcome home march’ and nobody would come.

  61. SB, your link boldly asserts

    The initial returning home parades for the troops were cancelled as they became a focus for the sometimes hostile public opposition to Australia’s involvement in the war.

    Can you provide some verification (any verification) of this?
    Thought not.
    And how about some details of the troops who had red paint thrown on them? The date of the march would do.
    Thought not.
    Indeed, stirring the rightist possum is an honourable occupation.

  62. Sorry, I forgot about your challenge. According to the Australian War Memorial Historians:

    As Australia’s military commitment in Vietnam began to wind down during 1970 and 1971, several battalions and other units took part in Welcome Home marches in Sydney, Brisbane and Townsville. Even at a time when massive moratorium marches marked the height of the anti-war movement around the country, thousands of Australians turned out in force to welcome home its soldiers, sailors and airmen. In Brisbane in November 1970, onlookers “wept openly with joy and pride” when 8RAR marched through the city, and in Townsville in June 1971 “cheering drowned the sound of marching feet for three city blocks” as the last battalion to come back, 4RAR/NZ, paraded through its home town. Such a positive reception lifted the spirits of the men who took part

  63. Good discussion

  64. Sorry to diverge from the Vietnam issue, but I do think that it would be good to have a day where all victims of war are remembered, from whatever side and also civilians.

    ANZAC belongs to the Australian and New Zealand veterans, it’s their day of remembrance.

    Remembrance Day on the 11th of November is more a general war theme but it is still a British inspired occasion.

    Palm Sunday could be a choice. However it is a Christian occurrence first and foremost, and it was more of a left anti-nuclear war thing in the 80′s and 90′s (although it seems to have diminished since the end of the Cold War).

    It needs to be a heartfelt day of remembrance of all victims of war. It should not become hijacked by any side of politics.

  65. What we can say with some certainty is that the troops did suffer a degree of abuse on their return home. It was necessary for Hawke to do in 1987 what Whitlam should have done, which is to give them the public recognition.

    It wasn’t just the left who treated them badly. Veterans of other wars did not treat them with respect. They were not welcome at the ANZAC marches of the time. The government did nothing for them. It took years of lobbying by them and their families to get any decent treatment at all from the various governments.

    Zoot you have given your references and I have given mine. Absent more research there is no reason to write one or other view off as completely wrong. I note that when I pointed out an inconsistency with one of your references, your response was “Better take it up with the Dept of Veterans’ Affairs, it’s their website.”. Of course when I quoted form the Dept of Veterans’ Affairs web site you ridiculed it as a source with the following words: “I’m not sure the Vietnam Vets Counselling Service is the most objective source of information”.

  66. Hello Jeremy,

    I’ve been fishing around trying to find out why those French veterans who served in Algeria in the 1960′s would be marching in the ANZAC parade but haven’t had any luck so far, I have no idea why they would be there.

    As an ex-member of the French military, I have no expectation of taking part in our ANZAC day parades — France has it’s own military commemoration parades and I’d have thought it more appropriate for both myself and those veterans to march in those.

    Not sure what the link is between the Scouts and ANZAC day, perhaps something to do with Baden-Powell founding them after his experiences in the Boer War, albeit that ended in 1902 and he started the Scouts in 1907 ?

    As an aside my grandfather is a WW2 vet….(New Guinea, Bougainville, etc), he is 93 and marches every year, he was there again on Saturday and I was watching from the sidelines — he insists on marching the full route to the Shrine and will not accept a ride in the vehicles that are supplied, such I think, is the mettle of the people of his generation.

  67. when I pointed out an inconsistency with one of your references,

    No SB, you labelled it delusional. You made no mention of any inconsistency.

    when I quoted form the Dept of Veterans’ Affairs web site you ridiculed it

    No SB, I pointed out that the source of the statement was the VVCS, who I don’t expect to be objective.
    If you can’t come up with the dates of the marches which were cancelled or disrupted by people throwing red paint you have no justification for claiming it happened. I’ve looked for such evidence and found not one scrap.

  68. THR I was around at the time. The idiot fringe of the left frequently hassled returning soldiers. One stupid bint famously daubed red paint on some of them.

    SB 26 April, 2009 at 12:50 am
    Wrong SB, wrong!

    When Australian troops returned they were called “Baby killers”, they were abused, they were spat on, they did have red paint thrown on them. I saw it on TV at the time, and in the papers. There is plenty of testimony on the web about this.

    SB 26 April, 2009 at 11:45 am
    Wrong SB, wrong!

  69. zoot you are losing the plot. The inconsistency I was pointing to was an inconsistency with the facts. You quoted a claim that ““The mass protests that many associate with the Vietnam era did not occur in Australian towns and cities until the 1970s” . This is clearly wrong, as demonstrated by Askin’s famous 1966 quip “run the bastards over” in reference to anti-war demonstrations.

    Rather than admit the quote you proffered was wrong you told me to take it up with the publishers of the quote.

    When I put up a quote you disagreed with, rather than take it up with the publisher, you demanded answers from me. Stinking hypocrisy anyone?

    Bizarrely, you demand I give you the dates of events which did not happen!

    Your claim that there were no demos before 1970s has been shown to be bollocks. You won’t admit it.

    My claims have been contested, but not refuted. The only way to get to the answer is a comprehensive review of relevant source documents and contemporaneous accounts. Unfortunately that information is not on the net. So if you want to claim a decisive victory, go and spend some time in a library and let us know what you come up with.

    Even if you were correct on these two points, it would do little to undermine the general proposition that Australian troops were subject to leftist abuse on their return from Vietnam.

  70. Zoot on page 126 of A Nation at War P.G. Edwards said:

    Running into the parade, she smeared the paint on the commander of 1 RAR, Lieutenant Colonel A.V. Preece, and some of the soldiers marching behind them.

    Apology?

  71. So, even though “there is plenty of testimony on the web”, “unfortunately that information is not on the net.” Thus a single event involving a lone protester supports your generalisation “that Australian troops were subject to leftist abuse on their return from Vietnam”?
    I have no doubt that some returning vets were abused. The overwhelming majority were not. In fact, after participating in the 16 Welcome Home marches most of them appear to have been ignored (by everyone).
    To interpret this treatment as widespread abuse by “the left” is grasping at idealogical straws.

  72. Didn’t think so.

  73. Lynda Hopgood

    Funny how Switzerland remains not only free, but one of the richest and most civilised countries on earth, despite not getting involved in any of those stupid wars…

  74. Run the bastards over!
    Well actually it was “run over the bastards”.

    Just being pedantic.

    Speaking of pedantry; any substantiation of the red paint on/abuse of soldiers?
    Or is that another well polished urban myth?

    Cheers.

  75. Marek: one woman daubed with red paint touching soldiers in 1966 substantiated, no substantiated general abuse of soldiers.

  76. AS the Vietnamese saying goes: close the door to the past, and open the door to the future.

  77. I guess I don’t need to breath fire on this one here SB as you seem to be pretty comprehensively shown to be the tool you are by others already.

    Speaking of PTSD and and the poor being sent to fight wars for the rich (as some mentioned above) this piece by Mattis Chiroux about his time in the US military, reasons for joining and what he lives with now is really illuminating, and touching that he would share it with the world.

    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/25-3

  78. Ev,

    Chiroux, a coward using weasel words to worm his way out of the duty that he knowingly and willingly signed up for, whilst continuing to enjoy the benefits of being in the armed forces — disgusting, I was feeling nauseous as I read it.

    And for the record, the invasion of Afghanistan was not an illegal war, it was sanctioned by the UN and the forces involved represent some 38 different countries, Chiroux it seems is a liar as well as a leech.

  79. “Willingly signed up for”?? It read like coercion to me.

  80. I just tried reading it again, still makes me nauseous, he wasn’t forced to sign up he says himself he was confident of winning in court because there was no evidence — what he did was take what he thought would be the easy way out.

    Sorry, but Chiroux is nothing more than a coward and a parasite, he insults all those in the military all over the world who do their duty and risk their lives to serve their country. I’d give his views no oxygen whatsoever.

  81. Well I would give your views no oxygen either Gavin because you’re clearly a tool and your views insult all those who, regardless of their occupation or what bullshit they are told to make them blindly follow orders, are able to stand up for what’s right in the world.

  82. Ev,

    That’s right, I’m a tool who won’t tolerate a parasite who’s happy to take the benefits of being in the military but as soon as he’s called upon to do his duty he shirks…

    That you would support someone of that calibre says a lot about you…

    Perhaps you could try mustering some respect for someone who’s worthy of it, here’s just one suggestion by way of example for you:

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Captain+extraordinary:+Ivan+Castro+of+the+U.S.+Special+Forces.-a0192591468

  83. I suppose it’s only when westerners get injured that you show concern huh Gavin?
    I mean, that occupation has cost over a million civillian lives and all you can come up with is an injured westerner?

    And if more people had the conviction to say no to the occupation like Matthis has then Castro wouldn’t have been in Iraq to get injured in the first place.

    I suppose Ali was scum as well for refusing to deploy to Vietnam as well huh? fuck you’re dick head.

  84. Yeah good one Ev, I’m a dickhead and you clearly aren’t intelligent enough to see the difference between a shirker and an honourable man, where they come from is irrelevant.

    The cost in lives is tragic, but that’s a different topic to what’s being discussed here isn’t it — what we’re talking about is a coward who ran away from his duty.

    Please cite some credible evidence of 1 million civilian deaths, the sources I’ve been able to find all say between 90,000 and 100,000 — still a huge number but far less than the somewhat hysterical number you’ve offered — and while you’re at it, perhaps you might consider who actually killed most of them — here’s a hint, it wasn’t the Coalition troops.

    The fact that you’ve had to resort to insulting me in your last 2 posts shows pretty clearly that you know your argument has little substance…

    So, with that in mind, you go on worshipping cowards and parasites because they share your ideology and I’ll just continue to support those who have done their duty and earnt respect, regardless of wether or not I agree with the politics that saw them put in harms way.

    To answer your question, Ali and Chiroux don’t compare — Ali dodged being involuntarily drafted into the army, Chiroux volunteered to join up…Perhaps before you start calling other people names you should try finding relevant analogies.

  85. OR is it open the door to the past, and close the door to the future. Sounds like it here.

  86. Shirked his duty? Actually, he did his duty according to the constitution, and refused to be a part of an illegal occupation.
    Joining a “Defense” force means the emphesis is on DEFENDING the country, not attacking other countries so that rich shits can get richer. So he in fact served is duty far more than the unfortunate Castro.
    And, I called you a dick head because you are a dick head.
    I don’t bother trying to reason with people who are unreasonable and pretend to have some insite into conflicts around the world based purely on what you must believe to be a superior ability to interpret main stream media (which is clearly where you get your info) because, as SB has proven, trying to debate with pig ignorant fucks is a time vampire.
    Look at Jeremy trying to reason with Phill on the next post up! for what? Is Phill ever going to come round? Not that I would describe Phill with the term I used for you or agree with Jeremy completely,but it is clear that Jeremy is wasting precious time there.

    As for insults, you insulted a friend of mine in Matthis, so dont go having a cry when someone gives it back to you.
    You want numbers, go outside the msn, especially New Ltd crap.
    You want perspective, talk to Iraq Veterans who have actually seen combat and seen their buddies killed so fucking pointlessly, you ever done that numb nuts?
    You ever talked to Refugees from Iraq of Afghanistan? I fucking doubt that as well.
    So dont flatter yourself into thinking you’re some mighty intellectual because people wont entertain your arguments, it’s actually because those people wont waste their time on your ridiculous notions and petty bullshit quibles.
    In fact, I think it’s you, sitting behind your comfortable desk, passing judgment on those who have taken more risks than you ever will, and shown more conviction than you’ll ever have, that is the gutless piece of shit coward Gavin.

  87. “In fact, I think it’s you, sitting behind your comfortable desk, passing judgment on those who have taken more risks than you ever will, and shown more conviction than you’ll ever have, that is the gutless piece of shit coward Gavin.”

    This comment is the only one I’ll bother with from your senseless rant above, I normally wouldn’t bother but since you ask and just for your information, I spent 15 years serving in 3ème compagnie de combat, 2REP, French Foreign Legion — during that time I was deployed on numerous combat and peacekeeping missions in many different countries for both France unilaterally and for the U.N. Twice wounded and awarded the Croix de Guerre 3 times, so yes I do know just a little bit about combat and seeing my friends die.

    Please tell me what you’ve done, how many lives you’ve saved and what risks you’ve taken from the safety of your keyboard smartarse…

    As for insulting your “friend” Matthis…There’s an old saying “If you lay with dogs you’ll get fleas” — I’d say its pretty apt in your case.

  88. IT would be interesting to know how many African Americans were killed in the American War in Vietnam, compared to the Euro’s. They say sixty thousand Americans lost their lives in Vietnam—and for what—- America was humilated and defeated through it’s involvement there. Yankee soldiers invading Muslim lands would be like waving a RED Flag in front of the bull.

  89. Hello Rick,

    I’m not sure what the percentage of Afro-American casualties were in Vietnam, I believe that they and Latinos make up the highest percentage of the US Army today, not sure if that was the case in Vietnam though — it may well have been, in which case I guess logically casualties amongst them would’ve been higher.

    “Yankee soldiers invading Muslim lands would be like waving a RED Flag in front of the bull.”

    Yes, although I suspect this could be said of troops of any Western, (Infidel), nation.

  90. “Peace Keeping” huh Gavin? Like the “Peace Keepers” in Haiti?
    Or maybe France’s involvment in Rwanda is more your style?

    I wonder Gavin, in those 15 years did you ever question what you were told? Did you ever actually look at what France’s role was in the countries you were deployed in and try and make up your own mind as to whether you should be deployed or not? Doesn’t sound like it.

    I’ll take back the call that you’re a coward (in some situations, like combat you’re clearly not…) but by stating that you’ve been wounded, and seen friends die yet still sit there war mongering and demanding other young people do the same, still means your a pig ignorant heap of shit and don’t understand why countries go to war or send “Peace Keepers” to here and there. I’ll give you a hint though Gavin, it’s not about “freedom and democracy”.

    And seriously Gavin, it’s not fucking rocket science. Signing up to the DEFENCE force, indicates that someone will be DEFENDING their country, not ATTACKING another country. AND Matthis DID serve is duty according to the CONSTITUTION, which superseeds the presidents orders. What part of that doesn’t make sense Gavin? Are you really that fucking stupid? Or are you following another one SB’s MO’s and calling something a rant because it’s easier than admitting you’re wrong…

  91. rick68 – Google is your friend. The abstract of this study states (in part):

    For example, death among Black soldiers ran extremely high in the early years of American military involvement (1964-68). However, pressures from leaders of the Black community limited the casualty rates among African American in the later years of the conflict. Paradoxically, Hispanic casualty rates increased as Black casualty rates declined in the post 1968 years of the conflict. As luck would have it, White non-Hispanic casualty rates remained constant during both phases of the conflict.

    It appears to be a very complex situation.

  92. I never went to Haiti, I won’t list all the countries I was deployed to, but went to Rwanda twice, first time France acting unilaterally second time under the U.N. — both deployments there were heartbreaking because of our inability to save innocent lives, yes France backed a complete bastard of a ruler, but unfortuneately the alternative was no better, and so we were caught in the middle — and yes, I often didn’t agree with the reasons we were being sent to certain places, but I had enough sense of duty to my fellow soldiers not to let them down by trying to shirk out of it. Bearing in mind, and not that I would have considered doing so anyway – the Legion is a different military beast to a National armed force, if you refuse to follow orders there’s no tribunal hearing — it’s prison followed by immediate discharge.

    You’re clearly not too familiar with the Oath that candidates for the US Armed Forces – (Note: no mention of Defence) – take, let me help you :

    “I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. ”

    There’s no reference in the oath to only defending one’s country, it says to defend the Constitution and to obey the President and superior officers — clearly he broke that Oath…End of story.

    As for you accusing me of being a war-monger — more hysterics on your part — like most ex-soldiers that I know, I’m not, but what I do believe is if someone signs up to the military, they should perform their duty when called upon to do so.

    I’m afraid if either of us is showing signs of being a “pig-ignorant heap of shit” , I’ll give you a hint — it’s not me.

    I’m still waiting for you to tell me what you’ve achieved from the safety of your keyboard…

  93. so you’re saying people should go to war but you’re you’re not a war monger?
    Yes, I am no expert of the oath, but I would suggest that the people presiding over the recent hearing for Matthis are a little more in tune with it than yourself.
    And if the domestic enemy is the president? or an officer appointed over you? Shit, just do what they say anyway apparently!
    What if your commanding officer orders you to fire on a group of unarmed people, that you well and truly know are unarmed? I guess you would have just done that huh Gavin?
    because thats doing your “duty”.

    But go on, define the duty, in your own words, that Matthis skipped out on.

    As for jail, well Matthis along with most other IVAW members that refused or deserted have risked jail time. I remember Josh Key saying he would happily go to jail for it, as long as Bush went with him.
    So to me, that they were willing to think, and risk jail time, when you weren’t will to, makes me have more respect for them than you Gavin.

    As for the keyboard, the fact that I speak to vets, and refugees, and that I am also hard on soft left types like Jeremy for substituting blogging for taking action should indicate that I’m only replying on here because I find it amusing to give you shit, because as I said, you’re a dickhead, and I like to call a spade a spade, not a tooth pic.
    As for saving lives? You woulda probably saved more lives if you had followed through on those doubts. War resisters played a huge part in ending the slaughter of Vietnam, and saved shit loads more lives than war mongers. As for me, only 1, but i didnt need a gun to do it, just to be the right place at the right time when someone was choking after having a fit.
    As for your medal, fuck man, even Howard got a medal of freedom from George W. and even Mugabe was knighted by the Queen… people get rewarded for following orders, not for doing good Gavin. Something you’re clearly yet to learn.

  94. Oh, and as for Jail, Matthis actually was actually locked up for protesting the war, and Nick Morgan, who served his time in Afghanistan, who did his “duty” as you would say, was trampled on by a police horse for his efforts and had to have his face reconstructed.
    See, they can stand up to armed openents in a situation when they cant even strike back with their fists because they believed in what they were doing, that it was right.

    YOU on the other hand, I dont expect have ever actually stood up and risked a fucking thing for anything purely because it was the right thing to do. Sounds like you only deployed because you didnt like the alternative of going to jail. And you have the hide to call others a coward or a weasel?

  95. This will be my last reply to you — you’re clearly beyond reason, and I don’t have the time or inclination to continue wasting my efforts on you, frankly I don’t care what you think of me…You’re a grub that admires cowards and parasites, you deserve each other.

    “Sounds like you only deployed because you didnt like the alternative of going to jail. And you have the hide to call others a coward or a weasel?”

    You clearly misunderstood what I wrote — I deployed because it was my job, not because I was afraid to go to jail, I only mentioned that to show you the differences in the 2 systems — I believed and still do, that if you sign up to do a job, you do it wether you find it agreeable or not.

    “And if the domestic enemy is the president? ”

    Better put your tin-foil hat on now.

    “I remember Josh Key saying he would happily go to jail for it, as long as Bush went with him.”

    Ooh, I’m soo impressed by the risk he took, ‘cos ol’ George was really a chance of going to jail along with him now wasn’t he…

    “As for saving lives? You woulda probably saved more lives if you had followed through on those doubts.”

    Umm, no — the people running around slaughtering unarmed villagers weren’t likely to stop any time soon if I and other soldiers weren’t there.

    As for your assertion that I’ve never risked anything because it was the right thing to do, I could cite, as just one of a number of examples, how it was that I came to be wounded the first time and received my first citation — it involved a number of children in the Congo, about 200 or so rebels and my squad of 10 soldiers, but I won’t bother you with the details.

    “As for the keyboard, the fact that I speak to vets, and refugees, …”

    Yes, all piss and wind like all the others of your ilk.

    And now, since you are by your own admission just a troll, I will assume that you’re just trying to take the piss and get under my skin — sorry, but you’re a failure at that as well.

  96. Gavin M perfectly describes EvShow:

    You’re a grub that admires cowards and parasites, you deserve each other.

  97. Well Gavin, Mathis actually did serve in Afghanistan.

    Nixon was a crook and a domestic enemy to a lot of people, i guess they should all put the hats on now shouldnt they.

    “doing my duty” is the main excuse used by Nazi war criminals Gavin,
    And it’s the excuse that “Dutch” used running the torture chambers in Cambodia, I suppose we should all jump to his defence and wave our holier than thou fingers of blame at people who said he should have resisted as well huh?!

    Your silence on the question on what you would have done had you been ordered to shoot at unarmed civilians tells me all i need to know. You woulda done it, you fucking cowardly piece of crap.

  98. SB, you’re such a massive fuckin’ tool, but I must thank you for teaching me not to waste time on dick heads like Gavin. I woulda gone to a lot greater length to school this fucking joke of a human being had i not know how much of a wasted effort it would have been, and I only have you to thank.
    So thanks SB, thanks for helping keep my arguments to idiots to a minimum of effort and a healthy dose of insults. You’re typical style as well actually, maybe we aren’t so alike…

  99. oops, maybe we arent so much different. different, not alike!

  100. EvShow:

    oops, maybe we arent so much different. different, not alike!

    We definitely are not alike. You are irresistibly ignorant, so quick to hurl insults at others yet so innocent of your own considerable short-comings.

    Your arguments are limited to ad hominem smears and limp attacks on ridiculously constructed straw-men. Your sources of information seem to consist of ridiculous fringe websites like Common Dreams.

    Your insults are useless clichés, betraying a deficiency of imagination and vocabulary. Anyone you disagree with is a ‘shit’ or a ‘dickhead’ or an ‘idiot’ or a ‘fucking joke of a human being’, stuff that wouldn’t be out of place in a primary school playground.

    It’s not as though you actually make a difference, other than discrediting the progressive side of politics.

  101. Sure SB, sure buddy, you keep spouting that dribble cause it’s all you know how to do. It’s no wonder you seem to get made to look like a tool so much on this site by all and sundry…

  102. Hello SB,

    I wouldn’t even bother with Ev, he’s a total loss I’m afraid.

    But the reason I didn’t answer his gotcha question about firing on unarmed civilians if I was ordered to do so was because there’s no way I can win in that situation…Had I answered yes I would, he’d have said exactly as he has, if I’d answered no, he’d no doubt respond by saying either 1. I’m a hypocrite for criticising others for disobeying orders, or 2. he simply wouldn’t believe me anyway.

    The fact is and it never happened, so its all hypothetical and thus valueless anyway, I would have refused and I have no doubt that I would have been supported by the higher echelons of the Legion and the French army.

    And just one more thing for you Ev, even though I said I’d not waste any more time on you :

    Disobeying an order to deliberately murder unarmed civilians is a very far cry from refusing to honour your Oath and perform your duty when called upon to do so. The fact that you can’t tell the difference tells me all I need to know about you.

    Now you can crawl back to whatever sewer you wriggled your way out of and take your mates with you, safe in the knowledge that there’s always going to be decent people out there who do have a sense of duty, who will ensure that whining, carping, whinging maggots like you will always have the freedom to criticise those who try to protect that freedom.

    That is all.

  103. My god, you’re are a pathetic one aren’t you Gavin?
    You said you wouldn’t reply because it’s a waste of time and you don’t care what I think, yet you obviously do and here you are again.
    The question is in regards to where do you draw the line, and for you it seems that firing a gun at the unarmed is not ok, yet being a part of an occupation which kills unarmed civilians is ok, so I would like to know why the second case of killing civilians is good whilst the first is bad? and who the fuck do you think you are to judge???
    As for your higher ups sticking up for you, please provide a precident for that.
    Abuse of prisoners in Gitmo saw only low ranking soldiers in prison, the same with the Mai Lai masacre, and when Kissenger and Nixon order the blanket bombing of Cambodia do you think anyone stood up and said that was the wrong thing to do? Cause if they did, I dont know about Nixon standing up for them.

    And jesus christ Gavin, you and SB are so fucking lame you cant even come up with your own reasons for not “debating” me.

    I have already stated that I am not trying to convince you of my position because I reserve my time for reasonable people, which I stated you werent and as such you are both a waste of time and only come here to make you both look even more foolish than you did previously as it amuses me.
    You are both so ignorant and will discount any news or information that doesnt fit with your world view because it’s “fringe” (which is actually an ad-hominem argument SB, but never you mind old fella) without actually analysing it, or analysing the fact that maybe the more people who resist the occupation of Iraq, the sooner it will end, not because someone is a coward.
    Yet not a day after I have told you both why I dont bother trying reason with you, you go and repeat the same thing back to me? For fucks sake Gavin, you cant even think for yourself on a blog, no wonder you made such a good little pawn for the French government and the UN. Protect Freedom? That’s what Bush says, and duty? Again, that’s what the Nazis and the khmer rouge use as their excuses. Sounds like you’re in good company there Gavin, you fucking scum bag.

  104. Lol…wanker, You’re a gem Ev, keep going, it’s hilarious…

  105. I might same the same for you Gavin. Luckily you’re a dying breed, not dying quickly enough though unfortunately…

    What I find hilarious is that you actually think you “defended my freedom” or some shit, how deranged you are haha

  106. EvShow:

    Luckily you’re a dying breed, not dying quickly enough though unfortunately…
    What I find hilarious is that you actually think you “defended my freedom” or some shit, how deranged you are haha

    It’s the deranged cackle at the end that gives this away as the work of a raving lunatic, rather than merely the rantings of an ugly thug.

  107. Spot on SB, but apparently its me that’s deranged — oh well, c’est la vie.

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